After a 10 minute discussion with a guy who I think is the manager of the network operations center (NOC), I finally got a guy to go down a reboot the server for the price of $125.00. The discussion that took place does not deserve further mention. The guys I work with overheard my half of the conversation and couldn’t believe what I was saying, so you can imagine what was coming from the other end of the receiver.
Anyway, the server rebooted, and I was able to get a login prompt again. (All remote work is done using Microsoft’s Remote Desktop.) I entered a username and password, then found the “Applying computer settings”window (or whatever Microsoft calls it). I waited a minute, and then the window abruptly closed.
I tried logging back in, and got the same results. Hmm…
I tried logging in a third time using a different user account, and this time got a message: “The system is shutting down.” About ten minutes later, the server was totally unresponsive — it doesn’t even respond to a ping request.
What does this mean? I have to get physical access to the server console to do anything at this point. This is not so easy these days, as I have a day job and the ISP is surely not going to have a guy sit around with me at 9PM at night while I fix a server — at least not without charging $125/hr.
The other solution is to simply pick up the server from the ISP and bring it home to work on it. For reasons explained above, this is the more viable solution. Once I get it, I can assess the damage and figure out what to do.
I’m going to contact the ISP (I’ll deal directly with the NOC manager at this point) and find out if there’s a time I can remove the server without having to pay $125/hr for someone to open a door for me. Hopefully I can arrange something with them that works with my schedule. If not, I’ll see if I can find someone to pick it up for me (I may have a few people who owe me a favor or two).
What do I think the damage is? I think the data is intact; certainly the database likely is. I’d bet that Windows is hosed. The disks were in a fault-tolerant RAID5 configuration, so it’s unlikely that we’d experience any kind of major data loss.
The options once the server comes back up:
- Fix the server and put it back in the NOC. The pros with this: we’re back where we started. The cons: we’re back where we started. This setup costs about $275/mo. (not counting $125/hr fees for reboots), about 2/3 of which is the server lease, which is up in August 2007.
- Fix the server and move the game to a dedicated server at a different ISP. I spoke with people at SoftLayer a while back, and they would certainly be a top consideration. The pros: excellent reputation and they manage the hardware. The cons: about $380/mo. for the server. Granted the server is more powerful than what we have today, but that’s close to $5,000 a year for a web site that brings in about $2,500 a year. You see the dilemma.
We’re at a crossroads, folks, and I need your feedback. Keeping CSFBL running is something I can no longer fund out of my pocket. I want to keep the game running, but I can’t go in without having a reasonable level of confidence that I’m not going to be out $2,500 per year.
Considering all this, how interested or willing would you be with the following proposals?
- Player renames can be purchased for as low as $1.00. (Players with one or more years experience would cost more, on a sliding scale.)
- Trades would only be allowed between players who have donated at least $5.00 in the past 6 months, or $10.00 in the past 12 months. (Credit would go back to the start of 2006.)
- >> What are your suggestions? Let us know and I’ll add them here. <<
I’d like to hear other suggestions for features that you guys would be willing to pay for. I’m looking towards adding features that add fun and functionality to the game — and that you’d be willing to pay a nominal fee for. I don’t want you to give something for nothing, but the things asked for should be reasonable.
Thanks for your continued support and patience.
January 24, 2007 at 4:49 pm
I think charging for trades is a bit too much though charging a buck a month per registered player is not as bad. To comment on you losing 2500 a year if you go with Softlayer. I look at it as an investment. You will have a more stable server to which you will gain more players. It becomes frustrating that the current server continues to have problems. In return, you lose players because of it. Sometimes you have to take a chance and invest to get something back. Just my 2 cents. Good luck
January 24, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Well what i love in all sim games is a chance 2 play teams not in my league… As to have a tournment ever so offen as to have the best of the best go at it to be #1 in all of csfbl. I love this game and its so fun to do when u have some free time. I would pay for that that could be fun. there can also be a trainer you can higher for $$$ for a week or so to help your players get there skills up way fast. I will donate money when i can to help out this game
January 24, 2007 at 5:00 pm
The $10 a year for doing trades? That is 83 cents a month, for as many trades as you like. I don’t think that is a hardship at all.
Likewise for player renames.
I would go even further, but that is a good start. We need some more revenue to have a solid server and game.
Basically folks, we are at a crossroads. The game is too big for Brian to host the server himself and to pay for the costs out of his own pocket (minus whatever ad revenue he is lucky to get). But we are too small to get the server hardware and support it really needs.
It is up to all of you to decide what you want to do.
January 24, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Other possible ideas for fees (note: this is just me thinking of ideas, these aren’t considered by Brian yet and THEY ARE JUST IDEAS. I don’t even know if I support them)…
1) Charge for each team in a franchise over a certain amount (3? 5?)
2) Charge for special statistical reports (new feature of course).
3) Charge for sub-forums in leagues.
4) Charge for team logos.
Again, just ideas I am throwing out there on my own. I haven’t discussed them with Brian.
January 24, 2007 at 5:06 pm
I will gladly pay 10$ for trades for a year. As soon as it comes back up ill donate 20. Now for a highschool student that has to scrap to get gas money and never gets put on the schedule at Chili’s (****ing bastards!), plus has to figure out how to pay for college, thats the best i can do. Sorry I cant do more, wish i could as i am addicted to this game…
January 24, 2007 at 5:11 pm
I honestly have no problem with a simple $1/month fee per person. I think its straightforward, easy, and I can’t think of many people who play this game that will complain about a measley $12/year.
Along with that, there would come worries about not being able to pull in new “clientele” for the future. So…you offer the first month free for new users. At that point, it becomes $1 a month. After a month, chances are they are addicted and will easily pay it.
Also, CSFBL relies on alot of word of mouth. I think it would be rather easy to keep pulling in new people through this technique from current users. Might require a few advertising techniques, but that is easy. $5,000 a year only requires 415 paying users of $1/month. I would believe we would easily pass that.
As far as “profits” would go then…I think excessive profits from such a thing, if they occur, should be voted on by the users. Upgrade equipment? Discounts for experienced users? A payout to brian? Raffles? Whatever. Post the “financials” from the company and show what the profits are, and let users decide upon things from there.
Just some ideas.
January 24, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Well, as someone who already supports, I am perfectly fine with some sort of fee for doing stuff. $10 for a year’s worth of trading is fine by me…Like Chris said, we’re talking $0.83 a month in the long-run. I also like Chris’ 4 ideas for extra income. Teams over a certain number could cost “x” amount period or yearly. You would definitely get some of my money for helping me get access to some additional statistical reports
Charging for sub-forums sounds good (especially since I don’t like ‘em) LOL
I would also be willing to purchase a team logo for some of my teams.
Those are cool, because they are fun additional things that not having don’t hamper, but I think could bring in some good revenue from those who play a lot.
Also wanted to point out that the additional money for the newer ISP seems to actually be $1,260 yearly. (380-275/month)
I don’t know how many guys are active on a weekly basis with CSFBL, but if there were 200 — you’d be looking to at a goal of receiving $25 on average per player.
Some of us junkies who want trading, statistics, and all the cool stuff (and love to support the game) would probably help average out those who only want to spend enough to buy trading privileges.
January 24, 2007 at 5:23 pm
I love your ideas but any profits should go to Brians pockets for him to do with as he pleases. Diapers are expensive!
January 24, 2007 at 5:28 pm
I agree, profits should go to Brian who would most likely be putting money back into the game — if not, he deserves the profits.
January 24, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Oh, and don’t make me re-post my methods for adding a quarter/day to your pocket.
January 24, 2007 at 5:36 pm
the trades is a bit much. cause if you are in a league with someone who doesn’t pay…talk about the unfair advantage. one thing though. what about charging more for player name changes. Or how about a premium type membership where you can get a certain amount of player name changes (over that amount would cost a dollar) or maybe buy a 10 name package?
I would love to have my two favorite pitchers on my Dutch Harbor King Crab team (Ron Guidry and Dave Stewart)
and maybe the logo thing.
I wouldn’t have a problem with paying 5-10 dollars a month really. (even with my 3 month old).
CSFBL is by far the best baseball game i have played online or on game console. I’m a stat’s junkie, I don’t have to see every pitch and at bat.
The only thing I would love to see if I pay, is pinch hitters and defensive replacements (but i’m definitely willing to wait for those)
I also agree that Brian and anyone else who works on the game particulars should get the profits if there is any.
January 24, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Brian…currently, how many users does CSFBL have registered? Is getting 400 members to pay $12 a year something you think would be an issue? It just seems activity is high enough where I don’t perceive that being an issue.
Also, even if total owners goes down…it would increase efficiency and ownership. Those owners who just create Greek league teams and never check will be weeded out, and CSFBL ownership will become stronger and more competitive as a whole.
sure, having to go from a free site to a pay site sucks…but $12 a year is nothing, even for college kids…and I think the benefits everyone would receive are worth it.
I don’t like the idea of paying for the right to make trades…I think that would be an extreme turnoff to bringing in new members. “Here, you can have a team…but you have to pay to trade! Bwahahaha.” Sounds like something the Yankess would do. =)
January 24, 2007 at 5:46 pm
I think the most important factor is this:
Would you pay to play CSFBL if you were required?
Some will say YES without hesitation, others would scoff or say they cant. Either way it appears that such a situation has dawned.
I think a subscription based system works easiest.
25$ / year for up to 3 teams, 2$ extra for each additional team.
All teams “purchased” get the extra stats that premiere leagues enjoy. (for now)
This could help alleviate the current dilemma.
Also each new user should get 1 free month with 1 / 8 game a day team thus allowing him to atleast witness a post season depending on when his sign up date was…all new users are placed into leagues as they are now, and can only access private forums or leagues if they upgrade to MEMBER status.
$25 x 250 users = $6250 in annual income.
Membership includes unlimited trades, stats, etc. as part of the complete package.
Additionally, perhaps if you wish to setup a “PREMIERE” League with its own private forums, that will cost an annual fee of $25 for setup… commissioner is responsible for paying…however the arrangement is made is up to the commissioner.
If we have 10 private leagues operating at 25$ per thats an additional $250 dollars
I believe that all these things can be instituted without too much difficulty and would be effective in getting CSFBL where it needs to be…a self sufficient entity.
January 24, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Realm, quick question about the $25 for 3, $2 for each additional.
What happens if I have 7 teams ($33) and halfway through the year I want to drop a team and pick up another (maybe a new league is starting). Do you “lose” your money for dropping a team mid-year or could you have your newly picked up team for the remainder of that year?
January 24, 2007 at 5:53 pm
I would also pay as long as it is reasonable. But I have to say that if we start paying, folks will start expecting more from CSFBL. There will be little patience for down time – and skipped sims. And what happens to the “server” money already collected? I hope you have a good accountant Brian!
Also be careful running tournaments – folks may expect a payout if they have to buy in. Now it’s like “on line” gambling. Could become dicy. I would try as much as possible to keep it as “donations”.
January 24, 2007 at 5:56 pm
I think being able to attach (or upload) a logo for your teams is a great idea.
January 24, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Here’s my thought,
Create a tiered type pay level
I think each premier or private league should have the ability to pay for the league and the owners in the league. What I mean by this is simple, some folks won’t have the means to sustain their ability to play in CSFBL due to lack of funds once this change takes place. So to offset the burden other’s in the league may step up and cover costs.
For those private or public leagues, they would goto another tier or ’self’ pay like folks have already replied about above.
If they want the ‘extras’ then they as individuals or as a league should pay for those as it entails time.
The new game will offer so much more and folks don’t realize that having something like this in place now will offset the ‘burden’ they will encounter when that change-over occurs.
Check out the other online baseball sim sites ALL of them have pay to play, it’s been a very nice benefit to have Brian step up for so long to give us this game at NO cost.
Anyways, just a thought, we need to tap into the league or community aspect as well as the personal in terms of ‘pay to play’
January 24, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Of course, as a donating member, proud owner of a hooded CSFBL sweatshirt and “buddy who got the Blue Jay mascot to hold up a CSFBL sign” want you to know that I also support these donations to play.
Bring em on….all of em…the logos concept I particularly like. The name change – Brian you may recall, I wrote you an email on…and I was surprised to see it mentioned…kinda flattered in the most un-gay way…not that there is anything wrong with that.
I will say this…I believe that you have enough people who will help out…Lets get our shit together and fix this mess ASAP
Remember….”Where the season never ends”
Play Ball !
January 24, 2007 at 6:04 pm
I don’t like the pay for trades idea at all since it would leave half of users being able to trade and half not, and having an admin turn on your trade status, etc. etc. It would just be a mess, IMO.
I don’t mind paying a yearly fee for my franchise or a yearly fee for teams though. That sounds very reasonable. I like the pay for player re-names and pay for sub-forums ideas too.
January 24, 2007 at 6:10 pm
one thing, and it was mentioned above by Taz…while most of us have no problems with any sort of fee structure, the problem then becomes time, brian.
if CSFBL becomes a pay site…users will expect more. Server problems, skipped sims, excessive downtime…these things will all have to be avoided in order to guarantee you are providing the product people believe they are paying for. In that instance…you might need to consider paying someone to assist you. If anything ever goes wrong, users will expect an immediate fix.
Just to say…going to a pay site opens a Pandora’s Box of work/time for those who are working for CSFBL.
January 24, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Awhile back, I did propose a tier system to Brian for CSBB.
I forget the exact details, but here are the basics. The idea behind it was to not charge for the game itself and what would be considered “requirements” for the game, but to charge for the added perks that people would just eat up.
Free – 2 teams
$12 per year – 4 teams, x number of player renames, ability to personalize franchise pages (team logos, uniforms, etc.)
$24 per year – 7 teams, double number of player renames, franchise blog, computersims.com e-mail address
$36 per year – 10 teams, triple player renames, ability to request 1 league creation a year, x number of special statistical reports
If we did it this way, just 100 users picking the $12 option would raise $1200. If 50 users picked the $24 option, that is another $1800. If 25 users picked the $36 option, that is $900 more.
Say that happened. That is $3900 right there, before Google sends Brian a check for ads.
That is pretty close to breaking even if the new hosting would cost $5000 a year. The first year, we wouldn’t need that much since we already had the donations from all of you (I think it was at $1700, roughly).
Of course reliability would have to go WAY UP. Easiest way to do this is complete CSBB. Then we can really work on pushing the game towards new users.
Of course, as I said before, this was all my idea and not Brians. It is just an example of one way we could go about this.
January 24, 2007 at 6:11 pm
$10 for trading with teams may look like a good idea on paper. But it will kill the game IMHO.
You’ll never get all the players in a league to pay the money. So there will be huge blackholes in who can be traded.
$1 for player renames etc.? Sounds good. I think touching a core piece of the game and charging for it though will do more harm than good.
January 24, 2007 at 6:12 pm
I think that to administer and keep track of some of these tiered ideas would be too much hassle. Just charge a flat $15 yearly fee per person. Charge for the extras like player renames, extended stats, etc… that everyone would like anyway.
January 24, 2007 at 6:14 pm
tazdevil wrote-”I would also pay as long as it is reasonable. But I have to say that if we start paying, folks will start expecting more from CSFBL. There will be little patience for down time – and skipped sims. And what happens to the “server” money already collected? I hope you have a good accountant Brian!”
about the downtime and missed sims…i’m sure there’d be less cause alot of people would stop playing if they had to pay…thus less sims…thus less strain on the system. also…this would make the sims run even better. i think this would be a great idea.
are we talking $25 a calendar year? or sim year? would make a huge difference. i like this idea the most. i would pay…i have two teams. but really only work with one. i believe in quality over quantity. paying would eliminate alot of the casual gamers and let all the leagues become more competitive…i think this is a great idea!
January 24, 2007 at 6:15 pm
I’ll throw out some ideas. As with Chris G, I’m not endorsing them, just throwing them out to see if there is any support.
League Draft Order Page:
Perhaps a few $ a month, this feature would allow league commissioners to manually assign players in the draft to specific teams. Essentially, its a global draft order page that applies to all teams. This would allow leagues to implement live drafts without mistakes (and before we can give them the real live draft feature that will be in the next version of the game).
Low Minors Override:
This feature would allow owners to accumulate more than 10 players in their low minors based on a sliding pay scale. ($1=15, $2=20, etc)
Salary Cap Exception:
This feature would raise the cap level for an owner. Again on a sliding scale, it would be perhaps $1 for every $5 million CSFBL cap dollars. ($1=55M, $2=60M, etc)
Scouting Money:
This feature would allow owners to get scouting in the game even though their team doesn’t have it because they’ve put all their money in player development or they’re too close to the cap. Perhaps $1 per 3 scouting points. ($1=3,$2=6,$3=9)
Those are the ones that come to mind right away, I’ll post again if I think of any more…
January 24, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Tiered isn’t that difficult to track as it would be an CSFBL admin option based upon your profile. Not sure the time requirement to code that into the system but overall the concept would be easy to accomplish
January 24, 2007 at 6:17 pm
This would be per real year. Charging for sim years would be a joke and an easy way to kill our user base, which we do not want to do!
For simplicity’s sake, I am all for x $$$ per year with add-on features available for an additional price.
- Chris
January 24, 2007 at 6:18 pm
I support the 12 bucks a year, or 20 bucks a calender year to play, get a month free when you sign up, and then start paying. I feel that neither of those prices is outrageous for what is offered here.
I would easily be willing to do that to keep this site going, as it truly is my stress relief both at home and at work.
Not a big fan of the paying for trades, as that could make some leagues half full of people that can trade, and the other half won’t or can’t because of the extra money.
Paying for renames?? All for it, If someone is willing to pay say a buck for a rename, and wants to rename every player on all 5 of their teams, let them, but charge them a buck per name. Obviously, there would need to be certain rules in place for each league, otherwise we will have 10 Hank Aarons or Mickey Mantles in every league of csfbl.
Another idea, 12 bucks gets you your teams, and 20 allows you your teams AND access to forums for 12 months?? Some players don’t care at all about the forums, while others, like myself and bill, and crock, and yis and zinger and… etc….. live there.
Charging money could cause some members to leave, but with a (and again, I don’t know anything about computers) bigger and badder server or whatever it is called, or does, could help the game could continue to get better, and quicker, causing people to either return, or word of mouth bring new people in.
I have been AGAINST ALL type of pay sites, for ages, but then again, I never was a part of one quite like this. CSFBL is head and shoulders above anything else I have ever been a part of. To bring CSFBL back, bigger and stronger then ever, I certainly would pay for a membership.
January 24, 2007 at 6:19 pm
I agree with portions of what you descripe Harbor, but when you get involved with $ to get an edge in gameplay that will throw some folks off and create problems
January 24, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Yeah, but the tiered option requires more programming and taking away time from programming CSBB. I think this should be avoided. The easier the better.
January 24, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I agree that coding will take away time from CSBB, but I’d like to hear from Brian on the ability to do it and if it were feasible
January 24, 2007 at 6:22 pm
I like Harborpirates ideas except for one: Salary cap extension.
The prices for a salary cap extension would need to be much higher than a $1 for 5mil. I could just see someone donating $100 for 500mil salary money and then purchasing the entire FA roster.
January 24, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Agreed meddlepal, the salary cap should not be messed with in my opinion.
January 24, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Which is one reason I am in favor of simple solutions. Charging for player renames = simple. Most users won’t use it, but there will be a good number of users that will and will use it often.
Charging for trades? More I think about it, the more I don’t like it. Too much of a core feature.
Charging a yearly fee? I am for it if the price is right, if there is a free month or so for new users (actually, I would do a free SEASON for new users…it usually takes a season for a user to get hooked).
Like I said before, I am all for charging for those little features that people don’t rely on, but absolutely love when offered (player renames, logos, blogs, etc.).
January 24, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Oh and I do not like any for-pay feature that gives a user a leg up over his competition (salary cap the biggie). Giving access to special stat reports is a little different, as the core stats will always be part of the main game and most users do not need more then the core stats.
January 24, 2007 at 6:26 pm
I don’t have ANY problem with there being bonus features that can be purchased such as any of those mentioned EXCEPT for trades. I personally really don’t even mind the idea of a yearly fee or subscription. What I do worry about is that if a forced fee is put in place there will be a loss of players who have been around for a while and having to pay might be the tipping point for them. I’d hate to see a league I’m in go belly-up after many seasons because some of the owners were forced out.
Only allowing trades for owners who pay a fee might hurt the competitiveness in some of the leagues. Some people just will not pay and it’s going to leave them at a heavy disadvantage against teams that can easily move players. This cuts right into the quality of some of the better leagues and hurts the game that the people who are paying are playing. Yes, I like winning as much as the next guy, but not if I have a huge advantage over some of the other teams. Player movement is huge IMO.
Ability to rename players for a scaled fee would be nice for sure. So would an ability to upload a team logo, have team colors, maybe some aesthetic things like naming stadiums and additional statistics on main team pages. I would love to be able to have team records added to main pages. Allowing leagues to purchase sub-forums for a fee would be good as well.
Really, anything is good so long as it doesn’t give paying teams teams a huge advantage over non-paying teams.
By the way, is there still a link to the PayPal donation area or did that go down with the server? A mailing address might be good as well. I think it’s about time I send some money. =\
Anyway, just my thoughts.
January 24, 2007 at 6:26 pm
I think it’s important for csfbl to remain free to play – for it to continue to grow. With that said – you could make ‘free’ accts lmitied to 2 or 3 teams – with a max of 4 games a day.
Then charge a yearly fee for ‘unlimited’ access – max teams allowed, 8sims a day … (and any other cool features you come up with).
I can only speak for myself .. but I’d certainly pay $20/$25 a year.
I think thats cheap enough and incentive enough for the majority to pay for ‘unlimited’ accts.
January 24, 2007 at 6:28 pm
I think a tiered membership would be the way to go.
Free membership – one team in one public (greek) league is free. This keeps the game open to those who want to experiment and get addicted.
Then say $10/year for basic membership. Unlimited number teams in public leagues. This solves the “I had 5 teams for 6 weeks, 6 teams for 2 months…” problem.
Finally $40/year for premium membership. This would allow membership in private leagues. Each private league could also set minimum costs for joining – leagues like Hall of Fame could say $50/year minimum to join or more.
January 24, 2007 at 6:28 pm
I think brian clearly knows what will be expected and will have that aspect well taken care of-that’s what lawyers are for!
There are enough business models around for brian to get a good idea of what to do. I don’t pretend to know what those are but there are some great ideas here.
You obviously need to offer something free to get people in and then enhance what they get for fees. One team? Maybe for free-in a “greek” league. More than one team? Fee. Start a league? A fee. Want a Premiere League with enhanced stats? Bigger fee.
Just throwing this out there like everyone else. But I will pay!
January 24, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Brian –
Could you post your address here so I could send you immediately a get the server going donation?
January 24, 2007 at 6:30 pm
The problem with having “free” accounts is that you could get someone who just creates a bunch of yahoo e-mail addresses and has several accounts.
When you link account signup with giving out a credit card number, that eliminates lots of things.
It also eliminates cheating, since cheaters are cowards who take the easy way out and do not like taking risks.
January 24, 2007 at 6:31 pm
I agree with the much lower team limit for free accounts. Maybe even allow people who play for free to only have one or two teams. It might help them pay more attention to each team!
January 24, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Note that my post right above this is not an endorcement of eliminating the free part. I was playing devil’s advocate.
January 24, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Agreed, Chris.
Just be aware fellas…if CSFBL does indeed go pay-for-play, alot of leagues are going to die, and many will go to 50% ownership. Just about every league is going to need to mass recruit if we wanna keep it going. I even think many premier leagues will lose a decent amount of owners.
Don’t forget the X factor too, fellas. We currently already have $1,500 just sitting around dying to be used. That gets us closer to that amount Brian needs.
January 24, 2007 at 6:35 pm
I am not for most of the ideas above. CSFBL was set up as a free site and should stay that way for the basic members. If you start the membership charges, it would be best to wipe everything clear and start over, so stats arent skewed and records not realistic with the amount of difference in teams with active owners. It would completely skew the records and books.
So my advice is this. Make some add ons that lots of people would like to use. I like the idea of a tournament, maybe quarterly (1 every 3 months (3 seasons CSFBL time) and charge a 5 or 10 doller entry fee. Therefore CSFBL keeps the people who dont have the ability to pay or dont feel comfortable with putting credit information out there around, and it makes things even more competitive because there will be a true WORLD Champion. It would make people get more into it, and it would also continuously grow into a bigger and bigger tournament. Therefore more and more money would come in. Think about it, if 50 people enter the tourney at 10 bucks, thats $500. 4 times a calendar year, thats the $2500 excess that Brian needs right now. The basic idea is a tourney format 4 times a year in which the best of the best battle it out for ultimate supremacy. I know I would pay for that, but I will not be paying for membership (There isnt enough that this game has that OOTP doesnt to keep me here if there is a membership.)
Those are just my thoughts, I think the tourney would work great, what are peoples thoughts?
January 24, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Brian, quick thought.
how far would that $1,500 currently on deposit get us “for free” before CSFBL goes pay site. Is that a possibility? Would it, say, get CSFBL up and running again for a few months, and allow you guys to get a staff together to move it to a pay for play site?
January 24, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Charge $5-10 for naming rights to a stadium. By default, it has no name, but you could change it to “Crapping Dog Stadium” or whatever you like. It would show up on the team page, and the Play by Play page for every game beside the attendance. They do this in the big leagues, so why not here? I love the idea of $1 to change the players name too.
January 24, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Yeah, I’m afraid site membership would go way down if we charged for everyone.
I wish I was rich so I could just pay all the costs, lol I would if I could, I really love this game.
January 24, 2007 at 6:40 pm
gah, hit submit too soon. I think that might be a good battle plan…
it allows leagues to find out which members are planning on paying to stay, and which are leaving.
It gives you a chance to get everything set up for options for paying and perhaps finding more guys to work on your “staff.”
it also gives us back the forums, where we can put to vote certain pay options, like renames, icons, etc.
I’ll shut up now. =)
January 24, 2007 at 6:42 pm
I like the idea of a qyarterly (4 times per calendar year) global tourney, in which people pony up 5 or 10 bucks a team (and can enter multiple teams) and a large tourney is done to decide the best of the best. Thats a $1000 to $2500 doller idea right there in itself!
January 24, 2007 at 6:43 pm
To further simplify the plan:
FREE – 1 month, 1 Greek Team
FEE – 25$ /calendar year for 3 teams.
FEE – 25$ to start private league (essentially private / premiere are the same for this)
FEE – any add-on:
Minimal charge: (2$ per addon, per year)
player renames (1$ per rename)
graphics – team logo, team colors, team mascot
reports – in depth stat reports
(10$ FULL STAT PACKAGE)
Enhanced Management- (for later development) – a scriptable UI for the hardcore manager which overrides the normal MANAGER SETTINGS we are familiar with in CSFBL)
Anything really which will not interfere or have any effect on the game itself or unbalance the playing field of teams in a league.
Memberships should be equal for all, add-ons:extra, leagues: extra.
This will streamline the process and make if very easy to implement.
January 24, 2007 at 6:45 pm
It’s about time this happened! Well, not really but it’s going to be good for the game. I’ve thought for a long time you should be paying for this site since it’s well worth it and you will get dedicated players to come pay and play.
I think you should charge for every league and set up a premier and non-premier type divisions. The Premier leagues cost more but they also should come with extras. I also believe you should have a sliding scale for getting into leagues in terms of what it costs (not just two options) however, I think that there should be prizes (cash or otherwise) as a reward in the higher priced leagues.
Ie:
“Premier league”$100/year. That’s 2400 per premier league your raking in…however, return some of that money in prizes to the top three finishers of each season. This will only bring the most dedicated (in most cases) to the league and will be incentive to pay the $100/year fee. I think you should also pay someone (like me) $10/year to run the stats for the premier leagues so you can be assured that the leagues are full of stuff worth paying for.
Then pump the advertising on it.
Non-premier league $25/year.
January 24, 2007 at 6:45 pm
I’d support the tiered membership, but with the inevitable problems that will result from CSFBL code problems, are we better off waiting for the new game before making the move to the new ISP?
January 24, 2007 at 6:46 pm
I know I would not play this game if I had to pay money. I do not do much besides check it out every day. I dont like putting my credit card on the internet, simple. I think you should charge for premier leagues and for special features (special statistics, player name changes, special manegerial options like lefty reliever-lefty matchups, pinch hitting or pinch running and such) this way the people that are REALLY addicted can pay for the site. The casual fan should not pay because you would lose all of your casual fans and the site would die.
January 24, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Let’s not go nuts with the fees. $2400 per premier league is probably higher than it needs to be…
January 24, 2007 at 6:54 pm
“I’d support the tiered membership, but with the inevitable problems that will result from CSFBL code problems, are we better off waiting for the new game before making the move to the new ISP?”
Exactly…I think we should try to use that $1,500 as a float and keep CSFBL free for as long as possible before making the jump to pay-for-play. With that $1,500, plus I bet we can get more donations to keep us floating for awhile longer, should DEFINITELY be considered an option until CSBB is completed, or the lingering issues with CSFBL at least disappear.
January 24, 2007 at 6:54 pm
I’m all for paying for the perks (ie renames, etc). I’ve always said that those should cost money and would help offset what Brian digs out of his pocket. I also like the idea of having premier leagues pay a fee. I think limiting the # of teams would be good as well for free memberships. Hopefully it would cut down on the dead leagues as well if people had money invested in the league.
Can someone set up some free forums to discuss all this? I don’t like the blog format : P
January 24, 2007 at 7:01 pm
I’d consider donating, but my concern is – what if I gave $10 and then this happened again? Then it would not only be a waste of your money, but mine as well.
January 24, 2007 at 7:06 pm
I just registered, but my perception has been when you start to ask for personal account information (S.S.#’s, Credit card ID’s, etc., etc, this becomes the beginning of the end. I DO AGREE that if a player wants to take it to the next level, i.e. all the frills that have been discussed (team logos, renaming players, exotic stats), then set an appropriate surcharge. BUT LEAVE THE BASICS INTACT. However, the player gains a STEINBRENNER COMPLEX if you have to pay for trades and such. In the end, weigh the percentage of client-loss vs. investment.
January 24, 2007 at 7:10 pm
As a owner who joined in the past 6 months I have come to really enjoy this game. I second the idea that rdantholz suggested.
I think a tiered membership would be the way to go.
Free membership – one team in one public (greek) league is free. This keeps the game open to those who want to experiment and get addicted.
Then say $10/year for basic membership. Unlimited number teams in public leagues. This solves the “I had 5 teams for 6 weeks, 6 teams for 2 months…” problem.
Finally $40/year for premium membership. This would allow membership in private leagues. Each private league could also set minimum costs for joining – leagues like Hall of Fame could say $50/year minimum to join or more.
January 24, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Chi Beta Federation Members – A temporary forum has been put up if you want to come over and say “hello” while we wait. Any other CSFBL members are welcome to pop in as well if they want to shoot the breeze there since this comment method isn’t best for that.
http://chibeta.brightverse.com/index.php
January 24, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Actually, it’s hurting at the moment… may want to give it a few hours.
January 24, 2007 at 7:18 pm
My life is too complicated. I need simplicity. Let me pay a yearly membership fee and be done with it. I don’t care if you charge for the extra things.
No game advantages given!
By the way, I did buy a $1 ticket in tonight’s powerball. Things go well, and I can make this little problem go away.
January 24, 2007 at 7:20 pm
we seriously have one RICH member, right? Who can just give brian 5k or so? Anyone? Huh? Anyone making a mil a year? =)
January 24, 2007 at 7:22 pm
What about going with different or more ads for the site, as opposed to the google ads which, from what I’ve heard, dont pay too much. Is there any other way to increase the advertising revenue?
January 24, 2007 at 7:30 pm
I’d pay a flat fee to keep this website going. Somewhere between 10 and 20 bucks. You could allow people to use a real pared down for free but to get the real game you gots to cough up some dough.
January 24, 2007 at 7:34 pm
i’ve always talked to brian about charging for player renames…and IIRC, the system might have the infrastructure to work.
Paying $1 for renaming a player you’ll have for 2-3 real years is great (8 game/day, longer for 4 or 2).
Simply, renaming would be an investment in your creativity, and well worth it.
Xdude
January 24, 2007 at 7:37 pm
ok… well this looks like the end for me… its been fun guys… but what some of you are talking about i can handle… I am in terrible debt and cant afford what you guys are suggesting…
Most of you probably know that I love this game, and am one of the most active in the game (trading, micromanaging, ect) and one of the most active on the boards (crazy posting levels, commissioning BU and LoL, doing fun writeups for leagues, ect) but i just cant afford it, I’m sorry…
and what some of you are suggesting to play in “premium leagues,” is so far out of my range its not even funny… some of these very leagues id like to think ive helped make and maintain now seem like i wont be able to play in anymore…
and for me to leave those leagues and be forced to play public and/or greek leagues, i couldnt handle…
Plus if were going to start charging ppl to give them an edge in the game, that doesnt seem right…
I’m sorry i cant donate, I really am… and it looks like the inevitable has finally caught up to me…
January 24, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Ok, the time has finally come where we HAVE to pay. There is really no way around it. In my opinion, we have a strong enough fan base that even if we charge a fee, we will retain most of our users. Even scrubb college kids like me and bill can scrap 20 bucks off our parents if need be to pay for a year of CSFBL. I am a fan of the tiered idea, and this would be my suggestion:
- All new users get one free season in a Greek League. When that season is up, if they choose to continue playing they can pay and have that team transfered into the newest private league and will have to pay a yearly subscription.
-Then you have a set price for the number of teams, probably 2, 4, 6, 7+ or just something of that effect.
-This fee, whatever it is HAS to include the forums as well, charging seperate for them will do nothing but cause problems I think.
-Do not make a league as a whole pay, make it each individual, referring to scrubbs idea.
-On top of that you can still have all of the special add of features, but you should NOT in anyway allow people to buy things that will give players an in game advantage, ie. salary cap incentives, trading, and scouting.
-I am convinced that we will not lose a significant amount of users and with new reliability we will continue to add new owners and many of the dead Greek Leagues will be eliminated adding even more sucess to the sims speed.
This is something that has been pushed back for long enough. Brian has spent way too much of his own money supporting us low lifes who have nothing better to do ; ) and it is about time he gets something for it. Whether he is making a profit or not really doesnt matter, but if we can cut into his fixed costs that it will make it that much more worth it for him.
January 24, 2007 at 7:39 pm
sorry… I meant to say…
“but what some of you are talking about i can’t handle”
srry i screwed up that sentence
January 24, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Something to be very careful about:
Putting too much stock in the comments made here – particularly the comments about willingness to pay to play. The people who are posting here, and who are giving a lot of thought to solutions are the kind of people who love CSFBL enough to pay. Thus, it’s going to appear from these comments that most of the members are more than willing to pay, when it’s certainly possible that it’s simply a product of the kinds of people who are leaving comments.
I think the best ideas that have been put forth are those that leave a core free version of playing the game (1 team for free, pay for membership for more than 1 team, naming/logo/etc. privileges). Chris’ point about several anonymous e-mails being used to circumvent the one team limit for free is a good one, and one that could be remedied by a requirement of credit card number – even if you’re just taking the free option. Perhaps even a one-time joining fee would be appropriate, and thereafter, you can play one team for free if you choose.
And how about a requirement that you click on the ads on the site at least as many times as you click on your team.
January 24, 2007 at 7:46 pm
Bill, what could you handle?
Flat fee of $15 a year for 3 teams?
Flat fee of $7 a year for 1 team?
Flat fee of $0?
Just trying to figure out how to keep players in your position.
January 24, 2007 at 7:51 pm
If you go to pay to play you are going to lose some people, that’s just a fact. We just need to say it’s going to be XX per year for XX teams. Even if it’s 2 bucks a year, some people won’t pay it.
January 24, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Hey,
The temporary Chi Beta Federation forums should now be working. Had an issue with SMF.
CSFBL users feel free to drop in on there as well.
Regards, Meddle
January 24, 2007 at 7:54 pm
I don’t see a problem with a yearly fee – or even added research benefits, statistical features, or even expanded minor league systems for subscribers.
Here is my idea…
1. yearly fee of 10.00 for subscribers.
2. extra statistical data and ability to rename a player or two (subscribers only).
3. subscribers only in Private Leagues.
4. Yearly Tournament with a 5.00 fee with 30 percent of the winnings going into a pot which is split between the top three winners.
5. A free tournament entry for any subscriber who gets a new owner to subscribe for more than one season. (of course, we would have to have a pre-pay option) .
With these options we should be able to raise 5k with only about 500 subscribers
January 24, 2007 at 7:54 pm
i dont like the paying per team… would rather have it pay per real year…
i could handle 10 a year i think… if it went to 20 a year, i dont know… i really dont
and anything more than that theres no way i could do it
i know lots of ppl can do more than that… im just not one of them, im sorry
January 24, 2007 at 7:54 pm
I have never given to this league and for this I am Sorry. My donation at the time would not have saved this league, but now it is time for all those regulars to step and and save the game. I would be willing to pay a one time fee per year all access..I lot of people are busy and just don’t have time for all the fee’s, but do what you have to do. Make a paypal account to use..Just charge me a yearly fee and leave it at that.
January 24, 2007 at 7:57 pm
personally i think if millions of people are willing to pay 15 dollars a MONTH to play world of warcraft and all those other games i believe we have enough avid csfbl’ers to pay 10 dollars a year (i dunno exactly what my limit would be but id gladly pay 10 bucks to play this game)
January 24, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Discussion site – a bit easier to read than the blog – thanks to meddlepal and comfortblylomb
http://chibeta.brightverse.com/index.php?board=1.0
January 24, 2007 at 8:01 pm
what about free for 1 team. you get to keep that team for 2 months (2 seasons in 8perday). if you like the game and team, then you have the option of buying in and converting that team into one of the paid leagues. essentially, when you first join, you are a struggling minor leaguer trying to make it to the big leagues where the big boys pay to play. if you don’t like, then your history and team are eliminated. i don’t know something like that.
then if you like, then the following:
2 teams for a $1 every month
4 teams for $2 every month
6 teams for $3 every month
8 teams for $4 every month
10 teams for $5 every month
January 24, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Hi everyone,
I have glared over some of the posts on this thread and I have been a one-team manager since I have started with CSFBL in 2004. I am very proud of my one franchise (Red Sox Revisited in the Hometown Heroes League)because, for me, it is about some downtime for me to enjoy this game and I don’t play fantasy sports on Yahoo anymore. Because of that, CSFBL and my squad is all about the quality of my team and franchise more than anything else.
I am a 36-year-old fundraising professional so I am more than willing to make a $20/month contribution by credit card or invoice.
Additionally, we would need about 290 contributors to make that form of committment per month in order to achieve the revenue goal needed to sustain a stable site, continue to develop ComputerSims Baseball and have a dependable and local Internet Service Provider that allows provisions needed in case there is a software disruption. I can tell you right now that some kind of CLEC like Level 3 Communications or Allegiant Communications work with corporate customers around the clock and ensure that if some form of software issue occured involving its operating system that they would take any necessary step for provisions needed to maintain their business.
Additionally, I liked some of the ideas from harborpirate such as:
League Draft Order Page:
Perhaps a few $ a month, this feature would allow league commissioners to manually assign players in the draft to specific teams. Essentially, its a global draft order page that applies to all teams. This would allow leagues to implement live drafts without mistakes (and before we can give them the real live draft feature that will be in the next version of the game).
Low Minors Override:
This feature would allow owners to accumulate more than 10 players in their low minors based on a sliding pay scale. ($1=15, $2=20, etc)
Salary Cap Exception:
This feature would raise the cap level for an owner. Again on a sliding scale, it would be perhaps $1 for every $5 million CSFBL cap dollars. ($1=55M, $2=60M, etc)
Scouting Money:
This feature would allow owners to get scouting in the game even though their team doesn’t have it because they’ve put all their money in player development or they’re too close to the cap. Perhaps $1 per 3 scouting points. ($1=3,$2=6,$3=9)
January 24, 2007 at 8:10 pm
I think Brian should simplify it all and charge a flat fee per year ($25.00 is fair) – maybe so much more for additional teams. The fee should include trades, stats, all services. The serious players will not be driven away be this fee.
Some people on these boards talk like this game is owned by the community. It isn’t. It is owned by Brian. I thin that, at some point, Brian should be able to turn a profit on this thing. Certainly, he is not required to show us the financials so we can all decide what the fees will/should be. I am confident that Brian will set a fair fee, and I hope he can make some money on this thing. It is certainly the cheapest entertainment I would have, even at $25.00.
I don’t like extra charges for the ability to trade. Everyone in a league should have an equal ability to trade.
I don;t care about charges for name changes. logos, etc. That is ok with me.
January 24, 2007 at 8:14 pm
i think charging a monthly fee to cover what you need is the way to go – dont like the idea of charging for individual items like trades, because you’ll have unfairness issues and the like. There has always been a problem with people having a lot of team that don’t mean much to them because it costs nothing to have them around. So, I think a system where anyone can have 1 teams in public leagues, and people that pay a fee can have more teams and be in private leagues is a nice thing – gets you much needed money, and organizes people that pay to play in a certain place, because they are going to care more on average than those that don’t
January 24, 2007 at 8:17 pm
You would still have people able to have some fun on CSFBL for free, but if they don’t want to pay, they are limited in their fun. It’s not the ideal world that has existed to this point, but things change.
January 24, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Keep the basic game free and charge for extras, plain and simple…
I don’t have the means to pay a monthly or yearly fee, no matter how minimal, so if it came to that I would no longer be able to play the game I have came to love…
If by some stroke of good fortune I got into a financial situation where I could pay to play, I’m sure the same couldn’t be said for the people I play in with in my leagues…
It would kill the private league I play in since there are times that it’s hard to find replacements for AWOL owners and unowned teams… It would be even more difficult to keep a full, active league if it cost money to play…
The competition would decrease with unowned teams…
Decreased competition would make payment to play even less attractive…
I think most leagues would end up suffering from this except the most elite who would no doubt be filled with the most active owners…
Then how many people would really be happy about paying to play in a league that has 8 or so unowned teams?
Then you got the problem of what to do if an owner cheats by way of collusion or tanking… In the private league I’m in we would get rid of that owner and bring in a replacement… How would that work if the owner paid to play? He paid good money for his team, can’t just give him the boot… What if an owner has a situation where he’s on holiday for 1+ month? Does he still lose his team automatically that he’s already paid for? Does he keep the team and the league has to accept playing against a basically abandoned team, lowering the competition in the league?
By charging for the basic game, you open up far too many problems…
How about eliminating the standard 8 game a day feature?
Make the maximum 4 games a day and give an option for leagues to upgrade to 8 a day for a certain price…
That would eliminate several sims per day and likely increase reliability as there would be less strain on the system…
The people who have the ability to pay and love the 8 a day option would pay for the extra games per day…
Others could still play for free in 4 a day and 2 a day leagues…
Of course I can already see those 8 a day owners pitching a fit everytime a sim didn’t happen…
I suppose it would be even worse if everyone had to pay and a sim got skipped…
Just my .02
January 24, 2007 at 8:21 pm
I fully support the idea of a tiered access to the game. ie. 5 bucks a year for 1 team, 10 bucks for 3 teams, 15 bucks for 5 teams, 20 for 7 teams, and 25 for 10 teams. Obviously not exact numbers, but you get the idea. One add on feature that I would love to see is unlimited (or pretty high) team creations, rather than the 1 per week we currently have. This is one of my favorite things to do. I like seeing how different settings creates different teams. I’d for sure be willing to pay an additional fee if something like this could be done like in the old days.
January 24, 2007 at 8:23 pm
I think that if you really want to get people hooked, you are going to need to give away more than 1 public team for 1 season. I’d go with 3 months all access for free. This would really get them into the game. Let them see some prospects grow and get into the boards and the CSFBL culture.
January 24, 2007 at 8:26 pm
I’m in total agreement with a single yearly fee only. Anything else will turn potential owners away IMO. Also I think having the abilty to have “additional donations ” would be good as I would sign up for the flat fee and certainly donate to keep csfbl alive.
January 24, 2007 at 8:42 pm
One idea that I’ve heard that I really like is charging leagues as a whole to be private (and if so, perhaps the league would then receive a few perks, like re-names to give out, team logos and park names, a true trophy case feature, etc.).
I think that SonsofIvy would almost certainly be willing to collectively pay $200 per year for our league. That’s less than $10 per year for each member in the league – so it’s not a huge burden on the players – but it’s also $200 a year coming in just from ONE league. I’m sure we wouldn’t be the only league willing to make such a pledge.
January 24, 2007 at 8:49 pm
ok heres my thoughts, the free idea is what attracts people like me to begin with, Altohugh i have now come to enjoy this enough that i am going to put a little cash on a visa gift card just so i cna go online and donate something.
Why not leave it as donation based. But have a few extra bonus by donation level. d0nate $10 recieve ex. donate $25, $50, $100 and recieve the attached perks for donating. It may inspire people to donate well not requiring it to play the game.
January 24, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Ace is a real dork…
January 24, 2007 at 8:56 pm
I have no problem paying for a service that Brian has provided so well for so long. I would have a couple questions and a couple of ideas…..
Are we talking about a subscription for both the new game and the old game?
Name changes have always been something that I would’ve liked, but how would we tell the difference between players if they happen to have the same name (when checking all-time leaders or something like that).
I think the easiest way to do this would be a straight up subscription fee for the basic leagues, a higher amount for private and a little higher again for “premier”. Within these subscriptions you would get “x” options for each type of league. That way it’s straight across the board, and across the league that you happen to be in.
I think there should be a limited name change as well. Something like 1 player name change per team per league. But I happen to think this will open a can of worms for league statistics down the road.
No matter the direction, if any, this goes I would like to take this opportunity to thank Brian and the development team for all their work over the years. This game is great and kept me coming back for more. I just hope there is more magic in the future.
Hudson Hawke
January 24, 2007 at 8:58 pm
No doubt that paying for trades would be a BAAAAD idea. I think payment needs to be for “perks” such as name changes and such. I would be in a tough spot, as I don’t think I could afford even a dollar right now (I have chosen to live in Ecuador, and with a wife and new baby coming, well, I don’t make the big bucks to begin with, and those that I do make will be going towards the fam! I suppose the powers that be can relate). Anyway, I would probably be a casualty of fees at this point, though at some point later I would try to return.
How does Hattrick remain a free game? Anybody play the free soccer sim?
January 24, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Most of you don’t know me, but I’ve been playing just about as long as anybody.
I have no problems with a $12 yearly fee. I’ve often wondered why this terrific game hasn’t gone that way before. I do not feel $$ for trades is a very good option. In the leagues I belong to, I trade with the same 2 or 3 players year after year. Most owners (at least those I play with) are pretty much oblivious to offers.
Realmwalker’s suggestion on a tiered system seems viable to me. Owners with 1 or 2 teams for free, if you have more it’ll cost you.
But really, a simple solution would be best.
January 24, 2007 at 9:13 pm
I’m sure what has helped hattrick is their option to become a “supporter”. It’s a fee you pay that doesn’t help you in game, but provides extras such as stats, news ticker, features for you team page, etc etc.
January 24, 2007 at 9:16 pm
I’d have to get a job as Realmwalker’s love slave if I could hang with some of the suggestions. Maybe Bill and I can become prostitutes. Mamma Greek would be so proud….
January 24, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Hugs 4 Sale
Price: My CSFBL fee
(They’re great hugs)
January 24, 2007 at 9:19 pm
I think the tier-system would probably work pretty well. A fee of $10 – $20 a year would be perfect and affordable.
Converting the game over would be tricky though. There would need to be substantial grace period for leagues to get their act together.
http://chibeta.brightverse.com – temp CSFBL and Chi Beta Federation discussion.
January 24, 2007 at 9:31 pm
>Owners with 1 or 2 teams for free, if you have more it’ll cost you.
I don’t really like the option of allowing up to 2 teams for free and then paying for any teams above that without some kind of restriction. I only own 2 teams and I would get away with never having to pay and I’m in 2 top premier leagues. Just doesn’t seem right.
Instead, how about you can have up to 2 teams for free but they are all limited to 2 sims per day?
If you want to play in the 4 or 8 game leagues then it’s something like we’ve been discussing where it’s either a flat fee of $10-20 a year or a tiered system depending on the number of teams.
January 24, 2007 at 9:35 pm
I use to play an online game called Monarchy. It was free and had a growing base of players. After many thing, they went to a pay-to-play of $1 a month. It really killed the game. So much so that they stopped it after 6 months. Sadly, I think that is what would happen here. the core players would stay but the casual people would leave and we wouldn’t get the new people needed to replace them. The word “FREE” carries an incredible amount of weight to people when they are looking for a game. So, I suggest this:
ALWAYS keep the game free. Well, at least allow people to have 1 free team, not for one season but forever. It may only be in public leagues but still, those who only wants a free game and one or two teams, will not stay if they will need to pay but keeping them may get them more involved. Anyone who would create a bunch of accounts just to not pay wouldn’t pay anyway so big deal. So they have extra accounts. As long as there is no cheating, it won’t really hurt the game and since they wouldn’t pay anyway, won’t hurt the income.
Have only premier leagues go pay to play. Maybe $5 a year. Nothing huge but that could give around $1000 a year.
Give credits, like in a game many of us play, simulatedsports, for donations and allow the credits to be used for extra things. Such as renaming, exhibition games between teams in different leagues, team logos and uniforms and one which could be great, allow “spring training” games for credits. I would love to have my team play say, 15 games before the years starts. Make each game be 25 “credits” and share the costs between teams and you can play 16 spring training games for $2. Once you have donated and have credits sitting there, they are easy to spend in ways like this.
Adopting these things could get you the income needed to keep things afloat and then hold special “drives” when something extra is needed.
January 24, 2007 at 9:38 pm
I have no issue with 2 teams for free and limited to 2 sims. There should be a restriction.
January 24, 2007 at 9:38 pm
well…it sounds like we have a good number supporting the idea….how can we escalate this is a timely fashion….I would even support a complete reset at this point
January 24, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Brian or Chris
Can we start a drive in the very near future to raise the $$$ ? How long are we expecting?
January 24, 2007 at 9:41 pm
I had forgotten about credits in SimulatedSports. That has worked out very well there, while keeping the site free.
But once again the simplest solution would be the best.
January 24, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Of the original suggestions, I wouldn’t mind either of the two as proposed: I don’t rename players, and I think I’ve actually been involved in two trades in the last few years…and they were certainly of no real consequence to my teams. Besides, I can rely on the bucks that I gave in the past for any possible near future trades anyway.
Regarding the “fee per team over some number” or similar ideas… I am not employed at the moment and would have to drop a few teams that I would really rather play. If that’s the decision, however, I’d understand. I can imagine how many leagues might end up shutting down in the near future, however, as people start dropping teams to avoid having to pay.
All in all, please do whatever is needed to change servers…if things keep dropping off the deep edge like they sometimes do on this other server, then I wonder how long you’ll keep any interest at all in the game.
January 24, 2007 at 9:53 pm
I think that paying per team would ruin CSFBL. I think that it would basically destroy every single public league. It would kill any and all sources of finding new owners. It would drive people to other alternatives, because if there’s a free alternative, people will flock to it; this is seen in the continuing presence of bittorrent as a viable downloading service for music and movies. We’d have nothing left but the core group.
You need to find services that people would be willing to purchase. Expanded stats, player renames, league capabilities, whatever.
There has to be a free part of CSFBL, because the people who get hooked on the free version are the ones who buy the expanded stuff. If you eliminate the free version, you’ll basically be depending on the same X amount of people for money, and as those X people start dropping out due to RL stuff, your cashflow is going to die.
Yes, it would be awesome for everybody to pay a buck instead of a fifth of the people paying five bucks. Unfortunately, in order to keep a steady inflow of new people, you need to keep that free version going. Sucks, but what are you going to do about it?
I apologize if somebody already pointed this out. It’s hard to read through the blog posts, and there are like a hundred of them.
January 24, 2007 at 9:54 pm
We can’t consider comments left on an emergency blog to be any kind of “substantial” support.
The more I think about it, the more I’m afraid that if we go to paying a yearly fee, CSFBL will not recover. There are *several* other baseball sims out there, but which cost money. If CSFBL costs, people will begin to do some comparative shopping. Can CSFBL compete with the other pay sims? I honestly don’t know, because CSFBL is all I’ve ever allowed myself to check out (for financial and time restriction reasons).
Personally, I’ll stay with CSFBL no matter what happens. But I have a hard time believing that most of the thousand CSFBL’ers are like me. And even if they are, the only reason they joined in the first place was because it was free. As much as I love it NOW, and would be willing to pay for it NOW, if it cost a subscription fee when I first looked into joining, there’s no way I would have done it.
I hope alternative methods of revenue-generation (different advertising approach, advertisement click requirement (how about advertisers that require you to view their ad before you can open the site – those have got to pay more than google, right?), continued aggressive donation drive efforts, etc.) are thoroughly explored before a pay system is implemented.
January 24, 2007 at 10:08 pm
[...] front page ← Post-server reboot results, and moving forward [...]
January 24, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Brian,
I don’t have time to read all the comments, so you are probably in the same boat with respect to mine. Nonetheless:
I’ve been contributing all along, so what difference is it to me if it’s mandatory? For the work you and the others close to you do, you absolutely deserve to have this supported. (Note that mandatory pricing, even if it’s something stupid like $10/year, would also likely fix a lot of problems like trade cheating.)
I say that you make a reasonable fee to play: $5/month billable to a credit card, $10/quarter or $25/year. If you can’t afford that…well…sayonara for a lot of reasons.
January 24, 2007 at 10:23 pm
hey guys….i am one of the guys that came over from Webl (the game that sorta inspired brian to create this game)…..over there there is no charge to play whatsoever, but you do have to put up with popup ads, and each page has an ad on it. You can pay to not receive adds for a year for $25.00, and that seems to work out well for webl. everyone who plays generates revenue, either by clicking ads or paying for ad-free. the other things they do is hold occasional pay tourneys, provide a ’special ‘ division where you pay for fighters.
I have donated a decent amount of money to webl, because i love that site. I have decided that as csfbl has grown in importance to me, that I will donate here as well.
Brian talk to Bruce or Duck or whoever and pick their brain about how they do things…..
January 24, 2007 at 10:27 pm
also, a part of this game has to stay free…at least the first 6 months has to be. when newbies come in you have to give them a chance to get addicted to the game (drug dealer philosophy, first hits free). after six months of free play, then the new annual fee kicks in.
i am also against paid for advantages.
finally, those of us who post here are the ones who care the most about the game, and thus are the most willing to part with our hard earned cash. It is not us we need to worry about alienating with fees, it is the managers who think this is the greatest FREE game on the net.
January 24, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Other sites that I have participated in in the past, when I could afford to spend some money (being entirely transparent, I now live abroad and make a salary that would not allow me to continue to play, as I also had to give up the other games that cost $$$), ran into HUGE problems whenever the site went down. I don’t know that this is as simple as flipping a switch. The new server will help, no doubt, but what happens when other things go wrong? There are many other costs that would have to come into play here, primarily being the $$$ that would go towards customer support. People gripe a LOT here when things go wrong in a free game. We can say, “we don’t want them anyway!”, but that probably will defeat the purpose. If a team is paying for 8 games a day, then they darn well better get 8 games a day. This is not in any way meant to be critical of the current status, but once you get into the pay for play realm, you are looking at paying for much more than a server. Would Brian be able to handle more with his job with the Yankees?
I think donations and features (that don’t really add to competitive gain) such as what Hattrick Supporter has are about the only way to get around this. I would absolutely love to continue to play, and being in a couple great leagues has been wonderful. Follow the Hattrick model.
January 24, 2007 at 10:36 pm
honestly brian…my mini-addiction to this game has been affected. my plans to name my first born son CSFBL Kozlowski have taken a serious hit…sorry.
January 24, 2007 at 10:40 pm
I too think that the pay for service model might spell the doom of a lot of leagues. The upper-leagues may not have an issue, but those in between low-private and upper-private will have a hard to time finding owners as owners decide there either going to pay or move out.
It will create a real Darwinian race to survive.
January 24, 2007 at 10:55 pm
I havent read everything, but from what I read here are the ideas I like best:
ChrisG’s suggestions:
Free: 2 teams
12/yr: 4 teams + a couple extras
25/yr: 7 teams+ extra
etc
I for one would def pay the $25 a year needed to cover my teams as they are now.
I also like the idea of charging for player name changes. $1 is perfect for that.
One thing I would absolutely not do is charge in order to be able to trade. This would drastically reduce the number of new users that go on to become paying members because they wouldnt experience that part of the game. Thats why I like ChrisG’s idea of offering a minimal amount of teams and the game basics for free. Once people get hooked only the poorest and stingiest wouldnt pay up.
Finally, I think that any extra money raised should go straight into your pocket Brian!! You deserve it!!
January 24, 2007 at 11:40 pm
talk of perks or no perks is interesting, but it seems like the perks won’t amount to all that much. Biggest perk would be if people that pay can be in 8 game/day leagues, people that don’t are in slower leagues.
January 24, 2007 at 11:48 pm
I am new to this game, only since November, but I am hooked. One thing I have noticed with other sim games is the option to play for free but on a scaled down version. maybe keep the old game free with limit of 2 teams for free and a few less options available. Charge for the new version for public leagues a small fee $10/year with 8 team limit. Charge $5 year extra per team in private or premier leagues. This way people can experience the game and if they fall for it then the fee would not be much to ask for. Also, if you go to WWE.com, they usually have a banner that you have to click past to get to the web site, this banner changes often on the advertiser or contact some of the the websites where you get credit for having a link on your site. If everyone would agree to click onto a link each time they log in, you would get a decent amount of money for support of the site. Similar to the voting links fore best game that you have now.
January 24, 2007 at 11:52 pm
man just reading all this over… this whole convo sucks… but i guess it had to eventually happen… i really hope that whatever happens CSFBL is able to continue, and that if i cant afford it, eventually when im out of school it will still be around and i can get into it again…
hey greek, maybe you, Moden, and i should get together and hold a car wash… or maybe make a lemonade stand
… this sucks
January 24, 2007 at 11:56 pm
First off, I’d like to say thanks to brian and the entire organization from top to bottom for such a fun, addicting, red-eye causing baseball sim!
Secondly, I like the ideas to pay for additional teams, but absolutely agree that having to pay for trades could put a big dent in the overall populace that plays the game.
I think most people could afford a flat fee of $10 a year. Renames could cost a buck, and maybe switching to a premiere league could cost $10.
We should surely go with the new server, as the current one seems to be unreliable at times and not really very practical to fix when it crashes (at 125/hr for support).
All in all, its a great game, and I have no problem giving something back to partake in it.
January 25, 2007 at 12:06 am
I’d also like to say that the when i joined in 03, one of, if not the leading reason I decided to try this game out was because it was free… and although at this point it seems like making it a pay game has to happen for the game to continue, I worry that this will cause many people never even try the game in the first place…
I would strongly recomend giving around a 2 season free trial to new registers… because it would give them a chance to get “hooked” and get a feel for the game…
because i know that if this game hadn’t been free back then, I would have never even tried it… and that would have sucked…
the other thing that worries me, is that a large demographic of this games players are in high school when they start playing… so asking them to provide a credit card and pay could really destroy this games growth…
I hope theirs a way to still encourage the high schoolers (who dont have credit cards) and college students (who have little to no money lol) to continue to try out and play this game even when it goes to a pay site…
i will be eagerly waiting to see who this all turns out, and hope i can continue to play
January 25, 2007 at 12:10 am
I strongly advise a K.I.S.S. approach.
All the complicated pay systems and tiers and perks are going to require someone to stand over a spread sheet. They cost more than the $5k to keep a website and server running. That or they become more work than some might be willing to devote time to, along with a possible decline in enjoyment for the administrator of it all.
Weigh the options of having a larger community that pays less to having a smaller community that pays more. Members finances change regularly. The more it cost the greater the chance that a member will find it harder to part with the $$$’s.
The tier system isn’t as good an idea as some think. I’ve been involved with other sites that operate with such systems. All it does is cause me to shop around for the best “price”. Membership fees don’t faze me in the least. When the size of my wallet comes into play then I become an outright customer. Customers can be hard to deal with.
January 25, 2007 at 12:25 am
honestly, the more of this I read…the more I worry a pay-for-play site just isn’t going to work. I don’t know if CSFBL would honestly survive if it went that route…
alternative funding options might be necessary if this is going to work.
January 25, 2007 at 12:38 am
Give me their address and I’ll break in. So much easier.
January 25, 2007 at 12:40 am
C’mon, give me a break. Pay-for-play wouldn’t work? Of course it would. $10 a year??? That’s literally nothing. If anyone can’t afford $10 a year for all the entertainment value CSFBL gives, something is terribly wrong. The other thing about a pay site is that it would help make sure we would have more active owners since people aren’t going to pay for a site they aren’t serios about.
January 25, 2007 at 12:43 am
I like the two free, 2-a-day teams to get you into the door and interested in the game.
Then if the person wants to pay to move up to 4/8 a-day leagues charge the monthly/yearly fee (some people may find it easier to pay $3 a month then $25 at one time).
I also like the pay for renames, statium/player. I’ve always wanted to have a player with my name on the roster. Or one of my friends, family, ect.
I think to eliminate confusion (the top 2 all-time HR hitters both being named Babe Ruth), you would need to institute a couple rules. Make it to where you could not change a name to one already used unless,
a) the name was given by the database and not a rename or,
b) if the first player has retired and,
c) not going to make the HoF and,
d) the second renames comes in a different league then any other player with that name.
I’m also a paying for extended stats any other perks that would hurt thr competitive balance, like increasing salary cap, more room in lows, or for the right to trade.
But most importantly,
I would like to thank Brian for keeping the game free for us all this time at the cost of time/money for yourself.
January 25, 2007 at 12:44 am
$10 sounds like nothing to those of us who love this game. But to new people who have never seen it before, that “ENTER CREDIT CARD INFORMATION HERE” tag is a pretty big turnoff.
January 25, 2007 at 12:49 am
agreed w/ Delta… and also, from the sounds of many people, where not talking about “just 10 dollars”
January 25, 2007 at 12:49 am
1st off I must say this is the only kind of site i have ever played and i got hooked. So much so that a couple of times i had no computer and my account was dorment for a while but the 1st site i went to right after getting back online was csfbl.
Yes I believe there neeeds an extended time for it to be free so a newbie can get ‘hooked’ if you are going to make it work to pay.
Pay for trades is not too good but maybe a charge after so many trades in a season.
i do like the pay for a stadium name. Possibly even have a price list for current and former real stadiums as well as other naming rights like possibly Demarzo Field which could cost up to a certain amount. In MLB and other sports companies pay for the naming rights we here would do the opposite and pay for the Naming Rights according to cost. The same could be said for paying for names. if you want to create Babe Ruth you better really want him and someone else had better not of created him in that league.
I do like the tournament idea but instead of giving money to the winner why not give the winner a shirt or hat or even a year subscription for free nothing too big just something to give them something to brag about. even a cheap trophy would be good. The rest of the money goes towards the upkeep and maintenance of the site. Have so many regular tournaments a year and even special invites to Championship Tourneys or other style tournaments. Obviously such rules as one team per tournament and if a tournament does not fill up somehow randomly fill the tournament with computer controlled teams.
Good bad or otherwise just some suggestions.
regardless I will pay to play!
January 25, 2007 at 12:55 am
Right Bill. Listen, I love this game, its fantastic. I want it to live on for a long, long time. I will pay to play if necessary, because its something I enjoy.
But even after a few free months…chances are those free months are gonna be in Greek league types, with other free months people…and when that NOW ITS JUST $10 TO PLAY-ENTER INFO HERE screen hits…I think you’ll be seeing alot of turnover.
I’m just saying…I think we might need to get a bit more creative in coming up with some alternative revenue solutions.
Perhaps creating a list of “dedicated donors.” Hardcore people such as ourselves who will pledge a certain amount each year, for starters., while still keeping the site free.
January 25, 2007 at 1:09 am
there are an awful lot of ingrates posting on here.
if you cry and complain this much when it is free, how unbearable are many of you gonna be when you have to start paying.
the ingrates must still be in high school. they sound too immature.
i have no idea who brian and all of these guys are but they have put in a ridiculous amount of work to keep this game running.
what is the deal with all of these people who do not seem to understand that if there is no $$$$$, there is no game.
again, if there is no money, there is no game.
i understand the whole argument for it staying free.
that is the only reason i joined and the only reason i stay joined during some tough financial times and months in the last 4 years.
but many of you simply do not seem to understand that when you say the game should be free but if you want something extra, you should start paying.
that to me is like ordering a pizza and expecting it free but only be willing to pay for the pepperoni.
without paying for the pizza, there is no pepperoni to pay for because the pizza never gets made.
it costs more to make the pizza than the pepperoni.
the costs for making the pizza needs to be covered before you all start concerning yourselves with freaking pepperonis.
the plain truth is that it is going to cost at least $5000 a year to keep the game running every year.
we all need to find a way to get that accomplished.
not enough people are going to buy the pepperoni you are all talking about being willing to purchase.
the game will die if no one buys the pizza.
the game will die if you are only willing to possibly buy pepperoni with your free pizza.
you have to be willing and able to buy the the pizza, a.k.a. the chance to play, or there otherwise is no game to have your extras and there is no pizza to put the pepperoni on top of.
i think it is sort of like baseball. the teams do not make money on the ticket sales. they make the money on the concessions. but the teams need to make people pay for the tickets to get in the game so that they can somewhat break even and then use the concessions to either make a profit or to have more money to reinvest into the team, the stadium, and so forth.
or something like that.
i will put my crack pipe down now.
January 25, 2007 at 1:12 am
eclectics said: people aren’t going to pay for a site they aren’t serios about.
That sums it all up right there.
First you have to get a new member seriously involved with the site to the point they are willing to pay “anything” to continue to participate.
There is no doubt that people will be willing to pay-to-play CSFBL. The question is how many, for how long, and can you increase membership faster than you lose it. The last part being critical to long term success.
I don’t know what the overall membership is of the CSFBL, but remember that it was a “FREE” site before. Free is quite affordable (apparently it has been costing 1 gentleman. That just isn’t right at all. The mans generosity is beyond belief.).
If the object is to keep a “community” together and growing where everyone enjoys playing CSFBL online then come up with a method to generate the money needed to do that.
If the object is to become one of those other sites where bringing in the “$” is the prime objective than you run the risk of losing your “community”. You have officially become a business and have to deal with the business aspects of running one.
January 25, 2007 at 1:22 am
the subject came up here too about if you have more teams than are allowed before charging for them people would begetting rid of teams and leagues would die but what if there was some kind of grandfather clause to where the teams we have now would be included in our yearly fees and we would not have to get rid of teams BUT lets say I have 8 teams now and all we can have is 3 before paying. we can keep the 8 with no added charges now but if we get rid of a team we cannot add another to get at the 8 we would have to go down to 7 or pay for the new team.
first it would deter from us old timers getting rid of teams unless they did want to pay and it wouldn’t “kill” some of the older leagues as it could possibly happen.
January 25, 2007 at 1:22 am
I think paying to play the site is a bad idea for a few reasons. 1. As its been said about 15 times, more will be expected from the server and it hasnt proven it can consistently hold up. I mean even if Im paying for 8 games a day and getting 4, im still technically getting jipped. If things didnt improve I would be one of the people to pack up.
2. College and high school students for a large part dont have access to credit cards and many parents would be hesitant to pay for it, especially for a site with a new credit card system and an untested money transfer implemented. I dont know what % of the game we make up, but I know its a fairly sizable portion.
3. A large spirit of the game that has made this game so popular is that it’s free. It’s what allows us to put up with things like this, but I would have never even started playing here if I knew I might have to pay in the future. I’m far from cheap but when Im working with a fixed income I cant go around spending money I dont have.
4. What happens when someone’s year expires in the middle of a game season. Not everyone is going to renew, and that will leave a lot of holes coming in and out of yeras during the middle of a sim. Also if an owner knows he is just playing for a short term, he can completely ruin the teams future because he doesnt care. Also if you pay and get a team, arent you kind of getting robbed if the team you pick up is just awful?
I think a better solution may be attacking advertisers and sponsors. Im sure this happens already, but if we can show that there are a large number of hits and members, and a potential growth with a new server that would make it worth a company’s while, eventually we could hit it big and hit a big time corporate company or (why not aim big) even MLB.com or something.
I also think that paying for anything that would give a competitive advantage is a terrible idea (aka trades, extra space in lows, scouting, etc…). that just ruins league balance. However, that being said, I think things that dont really affect anything like player names or increased stat pools hurt anything. I also dont think that having leagues for people who want to pay a little bit to get in for a few benefits would be a bad idea.
Like I said, if having to pay for the site comes in, or if not paying leads to a waste of time playing, I would just leave and go back to real fantasy baseball that I can find free. I dont think a true paysite is the way to go.
January 25, 2007 at 1:23 am
The eventuality of this becoming a ‘pay to play’ has always been there, the fact of the new game development and eventual launch just puts ‘a line in the sand’
All this is right now is a downed server in an ISP that doesn’t have flexible support…
Moving from the current ‘downed’ status is the first issue to tackle. We are forgetting the server drive, I think trying to FINISH that and then we move onto the pay to play, we are kinda jumping the gun saying the game will be ‘killed’, it’s already ‘dead’ right now but the focus of all that’s posted is about what happens when the game comes back but it’s not back…
I appreciate reading all the sides that are posted here and a lot of good ideas have emerged but the facts remain, solving the current issues should be the focus.
You want the site and game back? Help with the server drive and get the game back and help Brian with taking care of the $ issue so he can deal with the system/OS issue…
How many private/’premier’ level leagues are out there with solid level of support? Count how many of those folks are and that’s your ‘dedicated’ donor base, from that take the % that will stay when a fee will be charged for the gameplay?
Find a way or plan that takes the ‘good’ of instigating a ‘pay to play’ model and a entry level ‘free’ access… This is the current situation, the server crash just brought to light an issue that needed to be attended to a lot quicker…
How much will one be willing to pay to play? What is the break point in dollars of you leaving the game?
What are your expectations once you do begin to pay?
and it goes on from there
I rambled on a lot here but the K.I.S.S principle someone previously described really fits here so the simplier a solution the better
January 25, 2007 at 1:26 am
I agree with GOR here. I think we need to look at ways to keep the site running now, without making it a true for profit venture (I know that is the ultimate goal, but I just don’t see that being feasible with the current game). I think that when CSBB comes along, then it will be time to look at ways to make money.
I also agree that privileges for donating would be a way to go. Like if you donate $10 you get 5 player renames or something (that you could choose to use on your own players or give to others in your leagues).
I’m willing pledge right now that I will donate $10 a month through paypal to keep the site the way it is right now (I mean when running properly of course). If 49 other guys do this, the site is paid for for the year. I’m not calling anyone out here, but I think there should be at least 50 guys here that can afford $120 a year. I know I waste a lot more than that on things that bring me far less pleasure.
January 25, 2007 at 1:28 am
I’m very new to this site, but I have adopted a few teams, and am really beginning to become addicted. I only play public leagues (as I have not explored the premium leauges as of yet). I love the game, but I know that I would have never attempted to play it, if it was a pay-to-play site. Playing it the amount that I do, I think it is only fair that I donate some money. This downtime has given quite a few of us some perspective on how much we enjoy this site, and we may be willing to donate a little here and a little there. I think that the best idea right now, would be to hold a donation drive and see where that gets the site to. If there are numerous donations, then the site may be able to sustain itself for awhile. Otherwise, the discussion should begin about how to become a pay-tiered site. Something the creators might consider is a grandfathering in of the players who make a legitimate claim to not being able to pay for their premier leagues who have been here the longest, with each evaluated on an individual basis. This would alieviate the burdeon on some of the most faithful players. I fear that if it becomes a pay to play site, many, like myself, would never discover the game or its complexity. Paying for added benefits does not seem fair, but paying for better competition may be alright (similar to ESPN Fantasy Sports). I think the last thing anyone wants is to become an inclusive community, where new competition does not sign up.
January 25, 2007 at 1:41 am
One other comment,
When has Brian asked a $ commitment of us? The only one, besides the ‘doanation route’ that always been there, is the server drive. And he really didn’t start that, Chris did… So let’s show our ‘commitment’ to Brian and the game, he’s always been there to fix, maintain and answer and develop even with our sometimes ‘hostile’ community fails to realize his level of commitment to us, the game and it’s community
January 25, 2007 at 2:04 am
right. This is where my “dedicated donors” idea comes in. This isn’t about me being cheap. I’ve donated before, I will gladly offer myself as a “dedicated donor” to keep this site alive. The hardcore people here, like Ken, should all pledge to do the same.
The problem, as said now, is that losing this site for free is a big killer of FUTURE members, not current ones.
Mobius is right too…the first step is to finish this current server drive, get the game up and running again, and attack the revenue problems as we go. Without a CSFBL to pay for in the first place…a pay for play system wont do much.
January 25, 2007 at 2:04 am
10 or 15 $ a year don’t sound to bad. (imo) But I can see that for a college/highschool guy that is alot. Is there a way a reimbursement for ads hit(per owner) on the site can add up money for a csfbl user? ( I don’t know how the pay rate goes for ads hit.) I’m sure it flunctuates per advertisement. Say brian makes 1 cent per 300 hits. Give an owner 1 cent for 600 hits. Then have a ticker/balls/slashes whatever,,, showing how many times an owner has hit ads. Lets say 1 ball colored equals a dollar. Have up to 20 smalls balls or something. I bet some owners would hit those ads thousands and thousands and thousands of times a month. And it adds up for a real year. That’s all I got.
January 25, 2007 at 2:05 am
I meant to say “like Ken mentioned.” Sorry Kennyboy.
January 25, 2007 at 2:08 am
It’s all good Delta.
And there is a problem with a few guys hitting ads tons of times. That will make the ad provider question the accuracy of the people clicking (been through that before). And of course they see the IP of the people clicking.
January 25, 2007 at 2:09 am
oh, and have a thread in the forums for only ads.
January 25, 2007 at 2:11 am
oh,,,,,,,,,sigh,,, that figures
January 25, 2007 at 2:16 am
With all due respect, you guys (and gals, if it applies) are looking at this in a flawed manner. You’re looking at picking up revenue from the users themselves.
But consider — what are the assets of CSFBL? I’ll tell you — the COMMUNITY! You’ve managed to aggregate a bunch of people with a common interest. When that happens, you’ve just created a marketer’s dream — a marketer can reach out to an entire slate of people with common interests with just a single, strategically placed ad. That’s how sites like craigslist and myspace and YouTube have flourished — note that they don’t sell anything for the privilege of using the site. However, they’ve managed to generate revenue b/c they’ve managed to attract a critical mass of users to a single site, which makes the marketer’s job that much easier.
Here’s what you do, Brian: bring out the metrics. Figure out how many registered users, daily page loads, passive users, etc. you have — in other words, let’s figure out the “stickiness” of the site. Once you’ve put together the site’s metrics, let’s figure out the profile of the average CSFBL user. I bet you anything an online forum like this would work fine. I bet folks would volunteer all sorts of info. Now put that into a workable business marketing plan. Figure out what types of companies would like to target that group. Maybe one of those “Spring Training Simulation” camps down in Florida would love to sponsor the game. Maybe Topps would be a sponsor. Maybe “This Week in Baseball” would be a sponsor. But none of them are going to take any interest unless you have hard numbers to show them.
Now once you have sponsors, you have a decision: If that’s enough money to keep it going, fine. If not, you may have to leverage that into a pitch to investors to get some seed backing. For this, you’ll need to incorporate, ensure the proprietary code is CSFBL’s (and not yours personally), etc. But it’s really not as complicated a process as it may seem.
In sum, there are a lot of avenues, and as counterintuitive as it may seem, nickel-and-diming the users may not be the best solution.
Just my $0.02.
January 25, 2007 at 2:36 am
I like Chris G’s idea of a tiered system. brian has always said he will keep the basic game free.
Allowing 2 teams free and then charging for additional teams/perks makes much more sense. That will get rid of the freeloaders who own 7+ teams and don’t pay, but will still allow people who can’t afford to pay or don’t want to pay to participate in the site somewhat.
I’m willing to pay (I’ve donated in the past), but forcing everyone to pay is a bad, bad idea.
January 25, 2007 at 2:47 am
DiMo:
“I think that to administer and keep track of some of these tiered ideas would be too much hassle. Just charge a flat $15 yearly fee per person.”
I don’t agree. An automated system could be set up that would keep track of the subscriptions to the various options, when they expire, etc. Setting up permissions shouldn’t be difficult.
If you know how to do it, this could all be done automatically. If brian had to do everything manually, then yeah, it’d be too time-consuming to be worthwhile.
January 25, 2007 at 2:52 am
Maybe just have two tiers, 2 teams for free, and 10 for 15-20 per year or something.
January 25, 2007 at 2:56 am
“The problem with having “free” accounts is that you could get someone who just creates a bunch of yahoo e-mail addresses and has several accounts.”
OK, so if a user does not provide a credit card number or something, they must at least give a “pay” e-mail address in order to get a free account. That would solve the problem of yahoo, hotmail, and gmail accounts.
January 25, 2007 at 2:58 am
I’ve been playing a TON of Yahoo Pool the last few days.
January 25, 2007 at 3:10 am
I hate the idea of forcing people to pay also. I can understand the “two free team” idea, but I’d feel like I wouldn’t be getting as much out of the game as paying members. I believe I would lose interest in the game entirely. Now, I’m not cheap but for the last year or so I haven’t been able to afford ANYTHING. I worked all last summer and nearly every dollar went to court fines and lawyers. Last fall I went back to school and quit my job since it was full-time and nightshift. I’ve finally graduated and will start working again next week but it’s only part-time and I still have a car to pay off. I’d love to donate money, but I’ve never been able to. Call me a “freeloader” or whatever. So are we going to neglect the empty-pocketed users such as myself? Perhaps it is worth it to keep the game running and keep the sims coming regularly, but the main reason why I chose to play this game was because I actually could since there was no cost. Maybe we should remember the members of this game who aren’t cheap, but really can’t donate.
January 25, 2007 at 3:14 am
Charge as you will and do as you will. While the game has been a “pet project” of yours brian, i think that it should also provide a lucrative side as well. That side, based upon the fact that you have run the game free all these years, i’m sure you would reinvest the money and make the game far superior
January 25, 2007 at 3:19 am
hey robbie, no yahoo games for me, but I’ve been playing arcade games on this site I’m a part of most of the day. Fun trying to set high scores. I’m pretty successful at it, too.
January 25, 2007 at 3:20 am
And you can pay for my account.
January 25, 2007 at 3:25 am
Don’t get me wrong here, Darkwolfe. If I have any money set aside from the new job in the next few weeks then it will be going to the game. But if this game weren’t free I wouldn’t even be here. I never would’ve gotten the chance to play. And in fact, for the past year or so I’ve been saying the same thing. “Man, Brian could be making back a lot of money from this game, and he deserves to.” Sure, I’m kind of pulled both ways on the issue to be honest with you. What tips the scale is I want to do what’s best for me.
And yisman, the Yahoo Pool is actually what used to be my favorite online game before I found CSFBL. I’m getting pretty good at it again. Won nine game in a row today!
January 25, 2007 at 6:52 am
I dont think a lot of people would complain about having to pay $1 a month. A lot of games on the internet cost money these days. I think its also a good idea to let people who have paid, for example, an extra $5 a month get some additional features, such as the player names and the logo.
January 25, 2007 at 7:15 am
To further simplify the plan:
FREE – 1 month, 1 Greek Team
FEE – 25$ /calendar year for 3 teams.
FEE – 25$ to start private league (essentially private / premiere are the same for this)
FEE – any add-on:
Minimal charge: (2$ per addon, per year)
player renames (1$ per rename)
graphics – team logo, team colors, team mascot
reports – in depth stat reports
(10$ FULL STAT PACKAGE)
Enhanced Management- (for later development) – a scriptable UI for the hardcore manager which overrides the normal MANAGER SETTINGS we are familiar with in CSFBL)
Anything really which will not interfere or have any effect on the game itself or unbalance the playing field of teams in a league.
Memberships should be equal for all, add-ons:extra, leagues: extra.
This will streamline the process and make if very easy to implement
How about:
A new account costs $1 per month. Once you get your account you get 1 free team, trades and stats would be free.
Every extra team you want costs $5 per team
A team Logo costs another $5 per team
Player renames costs $1 per name
One thing that must not happen is that none of the additional costs could (not including the new account fee) in anyway effect or interfere with the gameplay itself.
January 25, 2007 at 7:27 am
I’m almost positive the game would die if it cost that much. At least well over half the leagues would die.
I like PackerKen’s idea. 2 teams free and then you pay a fee of 15 or 20$ a year and that gets you up to 10 teams. The add-on charges for things like logos and player renames are a good idea.
The only issue with the 2 teams free thing is catching people with double user names.
January 25, 2007 at 7:55 am
I wanted to throw this idea out there as a way to possibly keep things free to most members
How about the idea of selling off the leagues rather then forcing each individual to pay to play the game. If you made the cost of owning a premeire league $100 per calander year and we could get 30 guys to take ownership of these premeire leagues that would generate $3000.00 a year in itself. A good example of this would be NLT. Everyone pretty much knows that Red runs the show there. By him paying $100.00 per year he nows owns NLT officially. He sets his own rules.. decides on his commissioners.. decides on his players renames..decides on who he would like to be part of the league..etc etc. Premeire leagues would get all the good stats.. sub-forums.. live drafts..8 sims per day.. etc.
IS there a guy who will step up for each league and fork over the $100 per year to make his league premeire? I know I would be willing to bring one of my leagues to the premeire level if I were able to. Espically if I could have some control over the rules of the league and the members who are in it. It would also allow some leagues that are currently operating as private leagues to take that next step to premeire and be more attractive to recruit owners.
There could also be another level of ownership like maybe call it semi-pro. This ownership would cost maybe $40.00 a year. Only the owner of the league pays the fee. These leagues would be similiar to the premeire except for maybe less stats.. no sub forums.. no live drafts.. 2 commissioners max.. pay for player renames etcc.. also reduce the league size to 16 teams rather then 24 to enable owners to keep the leagues full easier.
For the new guy who comes by the site for the first time I think there should be a few Greek leagues that will let them test out the game. These leagues would be one season leagues with no commissioners etc.. At the end of the season the owner would get a message that says “Please join a semi-pro/premeire league to continue your gaming experience as this league has ended and all stats/players will be erased after 7 days.” This helps elimanate so many dead leagues.
Im not sure what kind of revenue this would add up to but it seems to me that this would create even more then charging each individual owner. If we get 30 owners of Premeire leagues thats $3000.00 per year and get another 45 semi-pro league owners thats $1800.00. With the name change/ stadium naming/ logo etc revenue added on I think we could break at least even and still sorta have a free game
January 25, 2007 at 8:52 am
Couple of thoughts… I’m not sure how you are planning on processing the various fees, but monthly fees or “per action” fees like for trades, will probably entail more paperwork than you want to deal with. I think the answer is very simple. As a starter/opener to the league, you get one team for free (after registering) and it’s a Greek League team either new OR take ownership of another Greek League team. If you want more than one team or you want to be in a premier league, then you pay a yearly fee. I’ve seen all sorts of different charges… anywhere from $15 to $100. $50 bucks for an entire year is probably not too much to ask, but I’m not sure for the younger or student players… perhaps $30 bucks is more appropriate. In any case, it will much more fee simple to charge a yearly fee. I think you use the profits to better the game and take whatever remainder and pay yourself. Just my $0.02.
January 25, 2007 at 9:00 am
a) boogiedown, all that talk about pizza and pepperonis got me really hungry
b) if the site does go to some sort of pay-for-play, I think it would be really important to find away to keep an owner’s current league situation as is.
So, let’s say the basic fee is $10/3 teams. If a majority of the owners pay the basic fee (not free, but EXTREMELY cheap) then we keep most likely a strong owner base. BUT, what if the average owner has 5-7 teams.
300 owners = 1800 teams (avg 6/owner) = 75 leagues…..
300 owners x 3 teams (basic fee) = 900 teams = 37.5 leagues [Best case scenario, 38 leagues completely die with the other 37 fully active and doing well] [Worse scenario, 15 leagues fully active, 15 leagues completely die, 45 leagues with 12 owners gone and 12 owners sticking around]
If the basic fee is the route taken, maybe current owners could be grandfathered so that their basic fee covers all current teams (up to 8 or 10 teams).
c) Seriously? Some people would not be able to continue if the game cost $10/year?!? Rounding up, that is $0.03 a day. I don’t mean to sound like an insurance ad, but come on!
January 25, 2007 at 9:01 am
I haven’t had a chance to read all 150+ comments, so forgive me if this has been suggested already.
I know some owners like myself came over from a sim basketball league, simulatedsports.
They have a system where you pay money and receive credits. In CSFBL, credits could buy things like the player renames etc. This way you aren’t having to make a cash transaction everytime you want to rename a player for a dollar, etc.
My other idea would be to have scouting based on different pay levels. For each team, an owner could spend $5 in credits on a category to gain 100% scouting for either batting, pitching, or defense. Although the people giving money for this would get to see their players more accuretly than non paying players, it wouldn’t give them any other advantage in the game.
Another idea could be to be able to spend credits each season for your team to increase your salary cap.
January 25, 2007 at 9:03 am
I’m in favor of ChrisG’s original proposed tier system or some variation…
1) 2 free teams
2) 3 or more + extras ($25 a year)
3) 6 or more + extras + ? ($35 a year)
You have to allow for some owners who are bringing traffic to play or else I belieive you kill your client base, especially before the new CSBB comes out and is efficient. There are tons of games out there for free and I specifically joined csfbl because it was free.
Does that mean I wouldn’t pay? Probably not, but I don’t mean that as a slight. I have payed for online games before (WEBL was originally free, but then it was bought by someone else and they made it pay, from what I recall. I paid between 50-100 bucks and eventually burned out and quit due to the server exploding or something.
Now I play WEBL again since a new FREE version is available from the original owner.), but I don’t see it happening again. Same thing with ESPN, and other fantasy sports sights that went to paid — I’d just play Yahoo! for free. Lots of people do this either due to financial reasons, bad experiences when paying, or a dislike for giving personal info out (credit card, etc.)
Just saying, from my own situation, I’d enjoy being able to keep our WEBL league going, and have an open spot to play with. Thanks for your hard work.
January 25, 2007 at 9:05 am
“But consider — what are the assets of CSFBL? I’ll tell you — the COMMUNITY! You’ve managed to aggregate a bunch of people with a common interest. When that happens, you’ve just created a marketer’s dream — a marketer can reach out to an entire slate of people with common interests with just a single, strategically placed ad. That’s how sites like craigslist and myspace and YouTube have flourished — note that they don’t sell anything for the privilege of using the site. However, they’ve managed to generate revenue b/c they’ve managed to attract a critical mass of users to a single site, which makes the marketer’s job that much easier.”
Exactly…theres tons of user loved sites that remain free…we should try to find a way to go their routes if it all possible, and use the donation based system from dedicated users.
January 25, 2007 at 9:15 am
You gotta decide, do we want to generate alot of revenue off a few or a little revenue off alot…if you agree with the latter then nothing suggested to this point will work.
Your talking about turning a free game into a revenue generated business, alot more thought needs to be put into that.
January 25, 2007 at 9:17 am
One more idea (we’ll call this idea #268.)
What if an option was made so that a player could pay an amount (we’ll say $50/year) to join the CSFBL Board. This would entitle you to a full 8-10 teams, a handful of renames, and some logos. Also, as a Board member, you could be included in important decisions about the game. It would also give you the right to have new league ideas heard by the Chairs of the Board (brian, chris, realm…whoever). The other thing this would do is give you the right to “mentor”/”hire” 4 or 5 managers. So, let’s say I paid $50 to join the Board — we’ll also say that maybe another 59 guys pay to join the Board as well. 60 Board members ($3,000 income). I would then have the ability to “mentor”/”hire” 5 other guys — completely random, let’s say I chose Bill, aztecs, lewi, and makila (I save my 5th in case I want to hire a new guy later). I would basically be sponsoring these players for a year. They would have access to 5-7 leagues and everything needed to play the game as we currently play — just none of the extra Board Member incentives.
What would this do? For those of us already willing to pay a decent amount to continue playing the game, this would give us extra bonuses (at a flat fee) and the chance to help keep alive some of our favorite leagues by being able to sponsor a few non-Board members.
This could be coupled with a $10/year fee so that you don’t have to get sponsored or 4-5 guys could pool their money to get a Board seat, sponsor each other and rotate who is the Board member every year.
Again, just another idea — one that tries to meld pay-for-play, extras, and the plight of the poor man.
January 25, 2007 at 9:47 am
Don’t forget the KISS concept. Keep it Simple. Anytime you start having different people in the same league having different capabilities because of how much they paid, you have made the game more difficult. I, for one, have no problem with paying a set amount a year. If I can’t afford it, oh well.
January 25, 2007 at 9:48 am
Chris and Realm from the little bit of what I read are on the th right track in my opinion. The thing I think has to be done and I’m sure that it has been mentioned but I’ll add to the list any ways, is
1) Free Team’s- In a 2 a day League/ 4 a day League’s, so users can get a feel for the game. And take up less demand on the server.
2)Upgrades to 8 A day- can be done if you a drop both your teams in the 2-4 League’s and just take on one 8 a day league, and that team then becomes free instead then and if you want to add more teams it’s a pay as you go thing the more teams the more you pay ($1 per month per team.)
3) Pay for League’s- Premier/Private League must and should be a paid service with all the bells and whistle provided by the game, weather they are 8/ 4 or 2 a day league’s. a one time start up fee of $24 dollars to these type of league’s and then the rate goes to $1 per month after that for each team owned. The responsibility for paying the start up fee falls on the commissioner/s of the league at start up.
January 25, 2007 at 9:58 am
I’ve read most of this and I haven’t seen anyone mention the transition from free to pay site.
What will happen to the current leagues? I would imagine that 80% of them will die. The majority of free leagues will have a few owners willing to pay but most will not. ALL those leagues will die out.
More people in the private leagues will be willing to pay, but you will find that a decent amount of players will not play which will hurt the private leagues for the paying customers.
I’m just not sure how the transition would work. It basically seems like we’d be starting over from scratch. These leagues that have been going on for 5, 10, 20, 40+ years will now be pretty much dead.
Sorry if someone has mentioned this, but after reading 100+ posts, I haven’t come across it.
January 25, 2007 at 10:00 am
Its over boys….with this whole pay-for-play the game is going to die. I know that there are 163 comments on this thread saying that pay-for-play is a good idea but those are from the same 10 people…the rest of the csfbl community are not going to pay for this. Unless you make a decent free system (2 teams for as long as you want-no 1 year term- and NO CREDIT CARDS because some members don’t have credit cards or are not willing to put their number online unless absolutely needed). Unless something like that can be figured out I dont see this site lasting very long because I know i would not pay and Im sure most people are with me.
-Unhappy Fan
January 25, 2007 at 10:05 am
The only way this will succeed is keeping all teams in any league at the same level. You don’t want a team membership level, more a league membership.
January 25, 2007 at 10:11 am
Here’s what I like:
Free – 2 teams for Greek leagues
$25 Annual – up to 5 teams in any league with current standard features intact (trades, scouting etc)
$35 Annual – same as above with 10 teams
$20 – $25 one time set up fee for a Premier and/or Private league
$12 annual “maintenance” fee for Premier/Private leagues (maybe)
Random donations get you varying levels of add-ons like name changes, more extensive stats.
Let me explain:
Keep it free for the Greek leaguers. These guys come and go like water already. They bring nothing to the game and will likely never be serious players AND will never donate/buy-in anyway. Their sole benefit is helping generate buzz by “word of mouth” advertising etc. I’ve been playing this game since the previous version and I found out about it from a guy who played for like6 months and was gone.
The small annual fee is not cost prohibitive. That’s a single night’s bar tab for some people. This who know me, know I don’t kid around w/ beer money.
The increase for additional teams. Same as above. I’m not a rich guy, but i’d pay that…and would probably never use all 10 teams
The one-time set up fee I think is more realistic for Premier leagues. I think if you make that an annual fee – with one guy (commissioner) beholden to paying that, you can create a power vacuum. If this guy goes all flaky he can kick people out of leagues on a whim, etc. Then what recourse do the other people in the league have? I’m thinking in worse case scenarios here. Charging anything for these leagues can get pretty precarious.
Maintenance fee – threw that out there to see if it works.
Random donations – extras should just be kept to things that do not create an advantage- name changes, extensive stats etc.
All of this talk about paying X-amount for Y-extra is nince on blog-paper. But having all of these a-la-carte menu items creates a programming and accounting nightmare.
I’ve got a blank check…tell me where to sign. But don’t tell my wife!
January 25, 2007 at 10:19 am
BigTweed, take it easy on the Greeks. I am not part of any private leagues, only two greek leagues, and I promise I have donated more money than MOST of you. I am not truely part of this ‘community’ so I have not joined any private leagues.
Saying something like you just said is pure stupidity. You have no idea what the greeks bring to this game. What makes you so sure that:
“They bring nothing to the game and will likely never be serious players AND will never donate/buy-in anyway”?
In our “greek” league, there are 8 people that I personally know and we have a great time playing and bragging against one another. We don’t have enough people to fill a private league, but we make sure our greek league has enough people to keep it alive and active.
January 25, 2007 at 10:21 am
For those who care about post/hit stats
“Blog Stats — * 10,014 hits”
Woohoo, we’ve made it to 10,000 hits on this blog!!
January 25, 2007 at 10:22 am
Brian,
I’ve sent you an e-mail with my thoughts.
Details aside, I think the key to growth & success would be in having a base free system and ability to buy more teams, renames, etc. that does not hamper the free members’ ability to play but lets people pay for increasing their load on the server if they want to.
Steve
January 25, 2007 at 10:22 am
”
man just reading all this over… this whole convo sucks… but i guess it had to eventually happen… i really hope that whatever happens CSFBL is able to continue, and that if i cant afford it, eventually when im out of school it will still be around and i can get into it again…
hey greek, maybe you, Moden, and i should get together and hold a car wash… or maybe make a lemonade stand
… this sucks”
-Bill
I was thinking more along the lines of prostitution but a car wash could work too.
January 25, 2007 at 10:26 am
I like Chris G.’s idea. Personally, what attracted me to CSFBL is the fact that it was free. I’m for keeping the basic game free. Essentially anything that is core to the game to manage a team (trades and such) shouldn’t be charged for. Perks (logos, renames, etc.) can be charged for because they are extra.
Ultimately, I fear that if CSFBL (and CSBB) becomes a pay-to-play game, it’ll become “just like the others,” hurting growth. Keep the basic game free, and charge for those “killer extras.”
January 25, 2007 at 10:32 am
F U for deleting my posts. People have the right to express themselves. Stop playing dad all the time (Chris).
January 25, 2007 at 10:41 am
With a pay option come expectations, you pay for 8 games a day you expect 8 games a day,
Unless we come to our senses here and think about the 975 members of CSFBL who have elected to keep quiet then the game is going to die a slow agonizing death, There are ways to generate a little revenue from alot of people, Currently at some of the rates suggested here I would have to pay $40 a month just to keep what I currently have in CSFBL, There are games that offer more options at less cost…you gotta think about that also,
The secret is this, keep the game free, give credits for donations, assign a certain ammount of credits per enhancement..I.E. 2 credits per name change..3 credits per team logo, 1 credit per team rename after one initial free name change etc. You take donation money and turn it into credits towards the free privledges some have now…with no exceptions,,,everyone gets put on the same level playing field…
The opinions and suggestions here are mostly based on “This is what I am willing to do” which is fine..you can still do it. But if some of those suugestions find their way into law then CSFBL will find itself with less than 100 members.
Some free options that are currently availavle to some leagues including renames aren’t available to the casual player, What if someone in a Greek League decided to rename a player? Right now they don’t have that option, but with credits they do..Its easy to say I can and will pay $50 a year..but what about those that can’t or won’t..should they be banned from a free game or the enhancement of the game when you join a private league? No they should not…
By deciding what the game can offer for credits and how much each credit option is worth then you open up the option of getting the guy who can only afford $10 every 3 months or so to donate for credits. At some of the current suggestions that $10 won’t get him anything..You gotta start looking at this from a Business standpoint. All I have seen so far is suggestions on how to get alot of revenue quick, its pretty much the Capitolist approach but the wrong approach here.
January 25, 2007 at 10:43 am
Glad to see the enthusiasm here, but this is similar to the more active forums in the leagues i play in….. a few loud voices posting a lot, and the majority of the owners either lurking or not caring (of which I have been guilty of).
Maybe the more dedicated people in the game (namely the loudest voices in this particular forum) should get together and become the sugar daddies of the game. (I am willing to include myself in this).
It is important to keep the game free, that is what brings people in the first place, and what keeps newbs motivated to learn the game also.
I say this: lets start a forum, get people to pledge the same amount each (say $50-$100) until you get 70-100 people. These will be the sugar daddies and will help brian carry the game until a better stream of income is developed.
Continue to search for ways to generate income for the site similar to the youtube or myspace model, GET THE POPUPS IN HERE….i know popups are annoying as hell, but they are tolerable to those who do not want to pay for a site. Allow users to pay for the annual privelage of an ad free site.
Finally, look at the sugar daddies as investors….if csfbl can generate income down the road and become self sustaining, then reward those who helped keep it afloat.
January 25, 2007 at 10:49 am
After playing Hattrick, I really did enjoy their “supporter” system and I think CSFBL could really benefit from it.
Bascially, you keep the most basic game free, but that gets you no custom names, 2 teams, and low numbers of stats (since stats cost cpu cycles)
Then you have a tier that gives you all the nice stats, up to X teams, and perhaps an API to start downloading stats into external programs (or even just an excel file). As long as the cost is on the order of $12-36 a year (and it really should be a yearly fee), it really would be something worth paying for, and you’d get to feel like you were helping out (rather that paying for the game) as well as getting good added value in the best currency in CSFBL (stats
).
January 25, 2007 at 10:51 am
has anybody considered getting sponsors or advertisers to fund this? Instead of chasing of all the members by making them pay!! I know, its a good idea! Any left over proceeds can go to me for saving the site!
January 25, 2007 at 10:54 am
Well, since i’ve been an advocate of taking this game to the next level for about the past 9 months, it looks like it will finally happen. The game has grown to much for it to continue as a free and fun little hobby for someone to absorb all the costs. The hobby has transformed itself into a small business and its been time to treat it as such for a while now. I”m a bit surprised that more folks haven’t seen this coming.
Whatever you decide to do, Brian, keep it simple. Don’t get into a menu of items that becomes confusing and advantagous to some who can afford it (like me). The simplest route is annual dues, whether it be $25, $30, or $40 per year. What you also have to remember is, that once you start charging for your game, you must provide what you advertise. Its now a business and not a hobby. Your fee should not only cover your added expense, but actually should allow you to make a profit that you can return back into the game to make improvements, upgrades, and maintain its reliablilty.
Yes, you will lose some members. But, like any other business, you do not want all of the business. You only want the good business. You will need those customers who are willing to pay for your services. Those that are not willing to pay will find other games to play. It may sound cruel and harsh, but that’s life. A $25 per year membership is a sacrifice of $2 per month. Anyone who wants to continue to play can find $2 a month.
Good luck to you.
January 25, 2007 at 10:56 am
OR have premium members where there are free members and then the paying…
bronze members get more stats
silver get all the stats and an invite to play in a premium silver league
gold gets all stats, all players ratings show up fully scouted and their teams get exported into a premium AllStar league each year
January 25, 2007 at 11:00 am
For those who remember this Frasier episode:
Bronze members, silver members, gold members….what’s that door over there? Is that a PLATINUM door?!? I want – no – I MUST be a Platinum member!
January 25, 2007 at 11:22 am
I would say Brian has some serious soul searching to do as to where he wants to take this game. No matter what though – if he charges, more than likely he will lose folks. Even active folks that are a huge part of the game as we know it.
Brian will also have to think in terms of running a business if he starts charging. Right now he is running a hobby. If it turns into a business it just may be too much for him alone. Now he is a boss with employee’s. Even if these are folks doing it in their spare time. The whole face of the game is going to change. Money is money – if Brian is making even 100 dollars a year profit (just an example), aren’t those who contribute to coding and whatnot going to expect to be compensated as well? Right now they are all doing it based on the fact that Brian isn’t making a dime and is actually spending his own money to maintain this game.
I don’t have any good ideas different than what has already been posted. “KISS” is the best approach. Brian has always maintained that there will be a “free” element to CSFBL.
I have quite a few teams – all 8 games a day. Some of those will get dropped if I have to start paying. Not a threat – just being realistic. Paying for add ons and such will add up for those of us who have more than 4 or 5 teams in our franchise.
January 25, 2007 at 11:36 am
Jew – I think you and your friends are the exception to the Greek Leagues, not the rule. I’ve been in countless Greek leagues only to see them fold or become so boring, it wasn’t worth playing in – the only excpetion being Gamma. And then, there are only 3 original memebrs from when the league was formed.
So – cool your jets. Maybe I should say “most” greek leaguers.
January 25, 2007 at 11:42 am
Reading through 170+ posts in this thread, there are some ideas I like and others that I don’t like too much. It seems that we have hit a major crossroads in CSFBL, one that I expected would come eventually.
I would like the idea of giving the new owners a free trial for a couple of seasons (2-3 months) in a Greek league. At the end of the trial period, that owner can choose to either move up to a pay league or keep that Greek team and get nothing but barebones access.
The current owners can either have the option for playing for free, but that would entail scaling back to only 1 team in a Greek league or paying for perks. For perks there would have to be a tiered pay system as discussed previously.
I would like the fee to cover various perks (player renames, super stats, logos, blogs, extra teams etc.) that don’t hurt the competitiveness of people paying less. Therefore, I would be vehemently against paying for trading privileges, scouting, a higher salary cap, or anything else that hurts competitive balance.
I would be against one person effectively owning a league, because the disappearance or arbitrary behavior of that one person could hurt the CSFBL experience of others in that league.
I do, however, like crocko’s idea of paying extra to get on a CSFBL board and then sponsoring others the way some users with supporter do in hattrick. Of course, board members should have to pay a sizable annual fee (at least $50) to have those privileges.
January 25, 2007 at 11:53 am
Keep everything the way it is now. Lower the cap on the # teams someone can have to 2 teams. Allow people to raise the cap on the # of teams by charging a one-time fee of $5 per team. Start pushing player renames like crazy and the other fun stuff. This may not generate tons of money, but could go a long way toward closing the gap that is coming out of Brian’s pocket.
January 25, 2007 at 12:00 pm
I love CSFBL. I think there is nothing out on the web like it. I think the challenge is to keep building interest while making the system sustainable from a financial perspective.
I like the suggestion of different tiers:
- Basic level is free. One team, in a public league. Advantage: free. Disadvantages: luckluster participation and competition.
-Pay level. Something affordable, like $10 a year (little problem of complaints from that). Get 2-3 teams in pay leagues. Advantages: ensures a higher level of participation and thus competition. You won’t have half the teams in the league unowned. Disadvantage: not everyone will pay, but at least you can still tempt them with the free leagues. After seeing how it could work, and wanting more competition and activity, a small percentage will want to move on into paying.
-Premium level: Optional. Maybe something like $15-20 per year. Most competitive, but would also have to give more perks. Advantage: only the most dedicated (or least concerned about money) will join. Disadvantage: will lose current premier players. Need to add other benefits to support higher cost.
Overall, I think that add-ons that cost but do not affect competition are the way to go. Team blogs, player renames, stadium names, logos, more detailed stats could all work. But I think the lifeblood of CSFBL, at least from my perspective, has come from the amazing offering that, at least now (and hopefully initially) is free. Just doesn’t exist on the web. If you start charging, expections leap and people will demand (not ask) for improvements and consistency. No problem with it, just understand this will come.
I would definitely pay the $10 a year, no problem. Probably not good enough to merit the Premier level, but I’m working on it.
January 25, 2007 at 12:08 pm
To the person who complained about their post being deleted, that wasn’t me. I have been in training all day. I love it how you automatically assumed it was me.
Wonderful ideas guys. Keep them coming. Brian will post later with what his thoughts are.
January 25, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Chris,
I think it was from one of yesterday’s threads actually.
January 25, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Either case, I haven’t deleted a single thing on this blog. I always edit posts that are unappropriate, not delete them…and I haven’t edited a post yet.
It looks like 3 comments were caught by the spam filter here. I have approved the comments, so those have been added to the discussion.
- Chris
January 25, 2007 at 12:31 pm
I want to comment on some quotes I saw above.
>And in fact, for the past year or so I’ve been saying the same thing. “Man, Brian could be making back a lot of money from this game, and he deserves to.”
Brian making a ton of money off this game isn’t one of his goals. If it was he would have been charging for it the whole time. He mentioned about a year or so ago that up to that point he had spent over $25,000 to run CSFBL with only about $5,000 -$10,000 coming back to him through donations and ads.
>Money is money – if Brian is making even 100 dollars a year profit (just an example), aren’t those who contribute to coding and whatnot going to expect to be compensated as well?
No, not really. We’ve talked about this many times and Brian has always felt very bad about how much time we’ve spent working on the game without getting paid and every single one of us told him that we are not in it to get paid. We are all doing it because we love the game and we want to help him take it to the next level.
January 25, 2007 at 12:48 pm
If ComputerSims is truly an LLC, doesn’t it have the ability to write-off operating losses? Or am I misunderstanding something in the proprietor of a Limited Liability Company?
I’ve made donations in the past based on $25/year and felt guilty about not being able to do more. I’m planning on doing the same this year. If that’s the cost of business to feed my relatively harmless addiction, it’s the cost of business, and I’m happy to pay it.
D Man made a good point that I’m going to reiterate since so many people are skimming through posts:
There’s a large host of people saying nothing about their committment to paying for CSFBL compared to the 40? 50? who have said, “Yes! I will do it.” To count on the core owners to cover the cost of everything in a long-term scenario is misguided, IMHO, simply because eventually life will get in everyone’s way.
January 25, 2007 at 12:49 pm
I also agree with the person that mentioned paying to be a 8 game a day league. People should be able to have a certain amount of teams for free (maybe 3) in 4 game a day leagues. Being in 8 game a day league should either be paid for by the league as a whole or by individual owners. Leagues could then vote on whether they want to be 8 game a day and pay the price, or have reduced sims.
But I really think there should be a basic free level, with the ability to purchase upgrades and add-ons.
January 25, 2007 at 12:54 pm
i like most of the ideas listed…but just want to say that i do understand where everyone is coming from..if it should stay free or if it should become a pay site. i’m okay with either…and honestly…i’d be super upset to see alot of the players leave because of having to pay. people like Bill who totally contribute to the game and making the leagues he’s in better than than would be without. i’d be sad to lose him as competition. and i totally understand when he says he can’t afford it…for a long time this was my game. i didn’t have the money for and xbox or anything, but i always had the faithful CSFBL to play.
i’m sure alot of people are in that boat…and when i get a job…pay site or not…i’m donating.
one thing i’ve been thinking is that since this has happened…we could probably keep the site free…since this has really hit home to alot of people…us regulars and believers in the game will probably step up anyways and begin to donate. there would probably be enough income off of our love for the game that it could probably stay free anyways…thus keeping everyone around. Bill…if you really can’t afford…when i get money i’ll pay for you if it goes to a pay site.
January 25, 2007 at 12:54 pm
“I don’t really like the option of allowing up to 2 teams for free and then paying for any teams above that without some kind of restriction. I only own 2 teams and I would get away with never having to pay and I’m in 2 top premier leagues. Just doesn’t seem right.”
The whole point of premier leagues should be to raise money. Obviously free users shouldn’t be in premier leagues (unless someone else funds their entry, etc.).
I thought that was kind of the idea to begin with.
January 25, 2007 at 12:55 pm
The drawback to paying for 8-game/day leagues is that people will expect 8 games per day if that is what they are paying for. That is why I think that keeping everything free, but lowering the cap on teams is the best way to go. It’s less pressure on Brian to make sure that the game is running at 100% and to get the game running again if it crashes. Whatever we end up paying, it will not be enough to make it his full-time job so he needs to have some leeway to get things fixed when things go awry.
January 25, 2007 at 12:57 pm
(imo) there should be a dramatic difference between the free version and pay version. If it comes to that.
Free version Greek Leagues= No League Message Board/ Forum, But they can use the top part of the forums. I’m sure some of those leagues might create a forum some where else . But at least it’s not on the csfbl server. If your in a free league, Renaming players is say a dollar more.And the PBP is a dollar more. Personally I would pay more for the play by play viewer than renames. Charge money for that. Or have a new improved PBP version that would cost more than the one now (if it was a pay thing). Or have the free version have combined attributes as compared to money leagues. EX: John Doe (free league) Di/CN = 62 BA/SL = 57 SP= 60 RA/GL/ARM = 70 EN = 90,
EX: John Doe (paid version) just have it the way it is. DI=52 CN=70 BA=88 SL=36 SP=60 RA=49 GL=86 ARM= 65 EN=90
Newbies could see how indepth the pay versions are and possibly go that way once addicted.
As far as changing the name of a player at any time could hurt a league’s experience. Well, for me it would anyway. I wouldn’t want a new owner to come in a league and change the name of a 10 or more year vet, future hall of famer. Like say William Burgress of BUF or even Billy Walters of NLT( I still remember him tearing my team up in those old days) They’re a big part of the history of the league. I say a player can be renamed, But the time table to rename him is short. EX: drafted – end of season.
This is going away from the KISS idea.
Say private leagues you buy a team 15 $ and keep it forever(as long as you log in every 20 or so days)
Premier leagues you pay 15 $ a year. (of course there should be some pretty dramatic differences between private and premier)EX: split forums,way more managerial options
Maybe have some raffles, EX: a ten dollar mp3 player will be raffled and a years service of csfbl(15 $ ), It only costs 2 bucks to enter. If csfbl keeps a decent clientel it should bring money in with some raffles, I would think.
January 25, 2007 at 12:59 pm
The free version needs to be more than the bare bones version if you want to draw people into the game. You cannot take away the forums from free users because this is one of the top things that draws people in and would want them to upgrade.
January 25, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Relying on donations and using crdits to rename a player who is in the draft with no experience along with Team logos, along with enhanced stats, along with the ability to try a player out in Sept and send him back down if he isn’t ready are just some of the ways this could be done…oih yeah, make each premier league a pay league..no exceptions…
Alot has been said here and alot will damage the game…you leave the game like it is, NO Changes, you start charging credits for things I mentioned above…as with every business or LLC you will have to endure some cost at first, then things level out, Trying to come up with ways to generate income quick….thats is a recipe for disaster and what will become the end of the greatest game ever created in Baseball simulation.
January 25, 2007 at 1:20 pm
D Man – “Trying to come up with ways to generate income quick….thats is a recipe for disaster and what will become the end of the greatest game ever created in Baseball simulation.”
one word….BAM!!!
this is a very good point. i however hate the idea of paying to bring a guy back down to lows…yuck…that’s part of the strategy of the game.
like i said earlier…i think that with this ‘wake up call’ the donations will probably start rolling in…making it possible to keep the game free.
i thought that it was required to be a donating member to be part of a premier league already. i think those leagues should be charged a rate as a whole. this way someone if they wanted could pay for others and such. (but again i thought this was how they already were handled…)
January 25, 2007 at 1:26 pm
I really like the ideas that D-Man has mentioned. The idea that if I donated 50 bucks, I get 50 credits to spend on my choice of things (renames, etc.) It gives the owner more control over what they want while keeping the core of the game free to play. Another idea I read that I liked was crocko’s idea about a CSFBL board.
January 25, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Somebody may have thought of this already. I didn’t have time to read the entire thread.
Charge for scouting on a sliding scale. Then let scouting work on your own team, the other teams, and draft choices. I would be willing to spend $5 to $10 per month for this.
January 25, 2007 at 1:35 pm
I started to read through this, but I don’t honestly have the time to finish it, so if someone has suggested this, then forgive me, bow how ’bout a dollar a team per season? Not sure how many teams there are out there, but I would guess this could bring $6-7K a year, $2 would net more. Paying for trades or stats doesn’t seem to be an overly effective approach, I’ve been playing at this site for about two years and have made three trades, and was approached for two others, I initiated none of them, it’s not my style and clearly I’m not alone. If you want this to work and generate enough revenue to cover server costs, then you’re approach should be something that affects everbody, but also doesn’t turn anyone them away. Charging for teams per season does this. Further, to alleviate the gluttony of abandoned teams, charge $5 to create a team or $2 to take over an existing one. This will help encourage people to pick up existing teams because it’s the cheaper alternative, that alone should help on a programming level.
My only concern is, if I pay 8 games a day, then I expect 8 games a day, and I’m not certain if that can be delivered…
Ben
January 25, 2007 at 1:41 pm
My thought on re-names. When leagues first started getting them, it was exciting. Now, I don’t think they are all that special — I predict half of renames would just be really stupid ones.
If they are allowed as a pay feature, I would HIGHLY suggest that only drafted players can be renamed and they would have an end-of-season window to change the name. If you don’t draft a guy you want to re-name, then you still have the credit you can use after the next draft (or in another league).
From a stats point, re-naming players not completely new is a big headache.
January 25, 2007 at 1:54 pm
first off id just like to say thanks to the ppl like Crocko, Tweed, and Bryce, that have said nice things about me and showed their support… it is incredibly appreciated
I totally understand that at this point becoming a pay site looks like it is the way this game has to go, I just urge that it is done carefully, because like dman and others have said, this is probably the most important decision that has ever had to be made w/ CSFBL, and if it is rushed, or handled incorrectly, it could ruin the game…
As for renaming players, their has always been a rule that the renamed players have to be in LM’s or in their first year, so i dont see that changing… if anything, Brian would make the requirements more strict, so i dont think you guys have to worry about that… and i also think that if your in a private league, the commish can just make player renames not allowed, which would solve that problem too…
Someone mentioned charging for the PBP viewer… now that is a good idea (well not for me lol but for the game and to gain revenue)… the PBP viewer is a great tool, and I know ppl would be willing to pay a small fee for it
January 25, 2007 at 1:55 pm
September call ups would be an option, Premier Leagues were set up to be donation leagues…didn’t turn out that way but now its time to get back to the origin of what they were suppose to be.
Exta scouting points thru credits per season is another option, I have actually logged 20 things that could be offered thru credits and actually sold on a Shopping Cart type deal…Its very simple..
Leave the game how it is, add credits for the things that enhance the game…
January 25, 2007 at 2:12 pm
One thought on limiting renames is you also limit the amount of money that can be generated from them.
January 25, 2007 at 2:15 pm
You also cut down on the creation of Greek leagues, all new members would recruit a team, Then credits would have to be spent to create a team and put them in a new league. Everything as far as the way leagues elect commissioners and the way they goveren theirselves should stay the same…That is actually part of the uniqueness of CSFBL.
January 25, 2007 at 2:16 pm
First I’d like to thank Brian that he created this great game and that it was for such a long time free. I have no problem to pay an annual fee, and for some extras likes more stats, player renames and more room for the lows.
But I don’t like those options that you can pay for things that gives you an advantage over other managers who are not willing or not able to spend more money. I mean things like bigger salaray cup, more scouting points. I am playing since a long time csfbl but about a year earlier I started with http://www.hattrick.org, a soccer manager game. The game is still totally free but you can buy a supporter membership. This gives you more stats, Team-Logo option, you can write news on your team and league website, you can give the players jersey numbers etc.
But you get no advantage over the other managers who aren’t supporters.
What I really like at csfbl, besides that I love Baseball and it is simply the best game of this, is the fact that all owners in the league have the same basement to manage their team. All have the same financial range, and you decide with which strategie you play the game.
With bigger low’s you will need a higher salary cup but maybe that’s a solution:
After the 2 seasons free trial the manager signs up for a membership (supporter) he will in the package the low’s extension and also a salary cup of 60 or 70 mio $, so all supporters (all Managers) will have the same salary cup.
Please keep it like it was that nobody gets an advantage for his team.
In real life I have more and more problems with the MLB, the salaries for players increase year for year, same does the salary cups from teams. CSFBL is so great because it depends on how good you manage your team and not to spend 100-200 mio $ for players when during the same time other teams can only afford 50 mio.
Sorry for my english….
January 25, 2007 at 2:20 pm
There would also need to be a minimum donation requirement for credits, $10 maybe, but you wouldn’t be able to donate $3 and get 3 credits, there would have to be a minmum donation requirement.
January 25, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Just a little math…
10 premier leagues..24 owners in each..10 credits to join (10 credits equal $10)
thats $2,400 a year, half of what Brian needs to get the new ISP, the nentined that adds generate about 2,500 annually unless I misread something, now that puts you up to $4,900. Popups I know are irritating but I play Yahoo Chess and get them all the time, everything else when it comes to credits is just gravey,
January 25, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Having read more of the comments, I see I’m not the only one who mentioned the credit system and also the $ for scouting idea. I hope these two ideas make it to the table when things are discussed.
January 25, 2007 at 3:06 pm
With the new server and new hard drive the comes the possibility of more stats for you stat freaks, simple things like batting average for the last 10 games, era for last 5 starts, the possibilities are numerous for a credit type system, CSBB is suppose to be the game than generates money, CSFBL should pay for its self thru the users and advertisements and simple things like making the permier leagues become premier again, allowing those leagues certain things that private leagues can’t get…and then an evaluation of what premier leagues are suppose to be should be done, I know of 3 maybe 4 private leagues that are far better than any premier league. And if members would rather dontate 10 credits to be in one of those leagues then they should be moved to premier status and certain Premier leagues moved to private staus.
January 25, 2007 at 3:13 pm
There are other things that arent being considered-someone mentioned a lot of paperwork invovled. That can be dished out to visa or mastercard or whever, but it isnt cheap. What about taxes. The site would have to pay federal taxes as the money it raked in could not be legally counted as donations anymore (i dont know if it would be New York state as well, not sure conceerning those laws). There are a whole lot of things that even charging users a dollar creates that arent being talked about. Charging money is not an easy thing to start up. Finding advertisers and marketers may actually be less time consuming in the end and could potentially make us a lot more money and give a lot bigger base of owners. Just think if the site was named CSFBL presented by (present baseball company here) and we got a link onto their website. The contract could leave exclusive operating rights to the same people, but a couple of thousand to a big time corporation with a fair sized fan base with potential growth could be worth even more than we are hoping to get out of these people
January 25, 2007 at 3:20 pm
rockman just nailed it…$5,000 just isn’t alot of money to companies, corporations, shit, anything. I captain a basketball team in a competitive league here in Chicago and got a $500 check from a bar to sponsor us…
The more we read this, the more I think sponsorships and advertising are the way to go. Going pay for play is just too risky to the future of CSFBL.
And like I said, this isnt about me being cheap. I will gladly donate $10/month to keep it going at this point if sponsorship dough falls short. That’s $120/year. If only 10 guys do that, its $1,200.
January 25, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Hey, for $2 can I get all my posts made in this blog added to my post count when the forums come back.
January 25, 2007 at 3:26 pm
“10 premier leagues..24 owners in each..10 credits to join (10 credits equal $10)
thats $2,400 a year”
Ok, but look at the premire leagues we have now, how many of them would you actually consider premire?
In my opinion, MAYBE 1 or 2
January 25, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Actually TD according to my count no league is premier in the games current non-state.
January 25, 2007 at 4:11 pm
I say DeltaKoz puts up all the cash…
January 25, 2007 at 4:12 pm
I originally brought up the pay to upgrade to 8 games a day idea and also mentioned in the same post that people would complain when they didn’t get their 8 games…
I see a few posts reiterating that point that people wouldn’t be happy if they didn’t get what they paid for…
Then I see all these other posts about having an annual fee to play the game…
Why hasn’t anyone said “If I pay to get 4 games a day I better get 4 games a day”
Both cases illustrate that if we are forced to pay to play the game then we will DEMAND, not hope for, not just expect, but DEMAND to get exactly what we pay for…
It just a fact of life…
We all know that we aren’t going to get every sim everyday…
So these people who already know they will be upset if they only get 6 out of 8 possible sims that they pay for are voicing their concerns over just that now, what happens when EVERYONE has to pay and misses sims?
You want all 8 games if you pay to upgrade to an 8 a day league, will that not be the case if everyone has to pay and you don’t get all 8 games?
Do people honestly think that a new owner is going to be willing to stay with a game that has reliability issues and charges you to play it?
It wont work…
This isn’t like McDonald’s where if they don’t give you what you paid for you can go to the front counter and the manager will fix the mistake… You miss a sim in a day it’s gone forever, there no going back in time and making things right…
Sure there could be refunds but that wouldn’t change how people feel about not getting what is advertised…
I’ll only go into that McDonald’s so many times and have them screw up my order before I start eating at Carl’s JR…
Or how about this: Consider your cable service or phone service… You pay to get 24 hours of service and expect to get all 24… If those services lost as many hours per week as we lose sims you would be looking to find a new cable/phone provider…
I’m not trying to knock the game, but it is what it is…
A fun game when it’s running right, not a whole lot of management options compared to pay games (some people who didn’t like it compared being successful in it to collecting the best Pokemon), not too reliable, with a great base of players…
That is why the free model has made this game and this community what it is today…
If there’s a missed sim sure people are pissed but it’s free so you can’t be too upset…
You keep your expectations grounded when given a free product…
Until this game becomes at least 99% reliable and incorporates more in depth management of their teams, charging to play just isn’t a feasible option…
Although it would almost be worth charging to play just to be able to read DKnute’s rants when he’s paid good hard earned money and the sims freeze on us…
January 25, 2007 at 4:33 pm
I don’t think the game needs to be 99% reliable to charge for it. To use your example, when my cable goes out (thunderstorm, electric outage, user error, whatever) I have a reasonable expectation that the cable company is working to restore it. Even when it happens multiple times, I’m still patient if I’m satisfied with the product. What’s the longest CSFBL went down in the past year? Maybe a total of 14 days worth of no sims? Two weeks within 52 weeks of a year? I’d say that’s pretty good for an internet based game.
I mean lets get some relativity here… what’s $30 bucks a year (assuming this was a proposed fee)? One dinner with your girlfriend at a cheap restaurant? 2 music CD’s? A shirt from Old Navy? How about a game that you can access 24-7, set lineups and draft players, create dynastys, and talk baseball and make friends on message boards? Probably worth more than $30 a year…
January 25, 2007 at 4:35 pm
I was just adding up the base profit from what I was calculating, the credits for donations would all be profit, The popups would pretty much all be profit..
You can take all cost off your taxes, If your annual cost is $5,000 then you can claim $5,000.
I have also inquired with Brian about his current Credit Card rates, I have offered Brian a program for Credit Card services thru my company at cost, All I need is some numbers to work with to see if what I have to offer can save CSFBL some money, hopefully he gets me those numbers and I can try to work a deal for him..Since a couple of the Executives from my company play CSFBL they gave me the green light to work the best deal I can to help out.
January 25, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Good post by JD. He is exactly right, and that is exactly what i’ve been saying about taking the game to the next level. If Brian charges for play then he would have to provide what is advertised. But, he would also have more cash resources to equip with better equipment, programs, servers , etc. Isn’t a better and more reliable game what we all want?
January 25, 2007 at 4:43 pm
exactly Hondo… the whole point of making it a pay site, is to make it more reliable… not only will he have a better server and what not, but there will undoubtedly be less people playing, and therefore less stress on an already better sever…
I think this game, given the right equipment is more than capable of running 8 or at least 7 sims a day… we have seen it happen for periods of time in the past, and given the right equipment, theres no reason to think it cant happen again
January 25, 2007 at 4:59 pm
If you are asking for input. I agree with the idea of a basic annual membership fee charged upfront. This figure would of course need to be determined by Brian.
I am not a huge fan of transaction fees and premium service fees.
January 25, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Does anybody have visions of Brian napping under his desk while working for the Yankees?
January 25, 2007 at 5:05 pm
LOL
January 25, 2007 at 5:13 pm
yahoo
poker
advanced lounge 2
table 5
csfbl vigil
January 25, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Brian or Chris G
Have you guys ever considered asking local businesses or shops to sponser the site?
All you really need is 5-10 business to poney up 500-1000 bucks each a year and in return they will get ads on the site, free subscriptions
, and other random sponser like items.
Is this too far feteched to think that a company would want to do such a thing or no?
January 25, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Even with annual fees you will most likely use a credit card..thus fees…Annual fees will bring the CSFBL membership to less than 100 members.
January 25, 2007 at 5:37 pm
message me for invite when you get there, we’ve got 4 in poker vigil
January 25, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Aww DeltaKoz has a Mini-Koz. Besides selling hugs, I am now in the market for a mini-Greek.
January 25, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Been reading through these posts. Have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I know that as it stands, while people are donating, it is not nearly enough. Not enough to stop Brian from having to keep taking money out of his own pocket from such problems like server troubles, as we see here. Making the site pay to play would hape this really become a business, and begin to pay back the debt that owners owe to Brian. On the other hand, what everyone has said, other than the 10 or so people who are for P2P, is true also. Change is fine, but a change of this magnitute, no one really knows what will happen. Surely, people like D-Man or Crocko, who are fully self supporting, can pay the fees. But how many younger players will be lost? I like to think of this community as a college, since I am in one right now. People of all ages. Students, Grad Students, young teacher assistants, young teachers, staff, middle aged teachers, and the occasional 75 year old who isn’t getting payed anymore but teaches because it is his passion. Make it pay to play, and I fear, though I mean no offense to anyone, that the community will become like a community college, losing the youthful angle, and, rather than live drafts being delayed due to school, live drafts being delayed due to the daughter and sons having to go to soccer practice.
A yearly fee seems the most plausable. Other things like renaming players, stadium names, uniforms…cute, and that’s not too bad. I would comment on things like paying to have a bigger salary cap or paying to have the right to trade, but I think that’s been shot down enough that anything I say would be repetetive, so I won’t bother.
The effect will be pretty big. As everyone says, CSFBL is good, and with the community, it’s great. Make it pay to play? Then yes, Bill, there will be less players, and the server doesn’t have to sim so many games. Yes Hondo, you’ll have a more reliable game..with less players, less skill variety, and overall, I’ll bet less fun.
JP4, I understand where you are coming from, saying what’s 30 bucks a year (a t-shirt, a date, etc.) You are right, 30 bucks is nothing. That argument sucks though. What if the yearly fee turns out to be 60 bucks? What’s 60 bucks? Two dates with your golddigging girlfriend? Two t-shirts? If “What’s 30 bucks?” is your argument, then a McDonalds Big Mac Combo for 30 bucks wouldn’t phase you, a 30 dollar notebook would be no big deal, and a 30 buck pencil is nothing. I mean, what’s 30 bucks?
I’m not trying to insult anyone, I am just stating my blunt opinion. Pay to play isn’t too bad, I mean, I am sure there will be people who will do it, and I am sure it will help Brian. Just, for the sake of more laid back players who use it as something you do when you’re bored, as opposed to use it until you’re bored, I would of course rather not.
January 25, 2007 at 5:59 pm
how about restructuring (recoding etc.) the game so that all the stuff is stored on an owner’s hard drive? Minimizing the data stored by Brian would help in keeping the game free right?
Maybe the sim engine itself could be stored on our computers, if brian can figure out how to sychronize the sims of the two teams playing.
I don’t know a thing about designing software, but just throwing my idea out there hoping that it’d spark some sort of a more plausible idea.